CR tire test results were posted on the Web

[chrisri]

To add my share to this confusion,

In Europe we have essentially two types of winter tyres and one all weather type.
All weather is a "snow flake" rated tyre that perform mediocrely in central / south Europe, both in dry, summer and in winter conditions. They are MEGA expensive and not popular at all.

First type of winter tyres are Nordic type with deep treads, can be studded. Those are in minority in most of Europe.

Second type is more common; central European winter tyres. Essentially, tyres designed for use on wet, dry tarmac, with occasional snow for use on motorways and high speeds. Such tyres will outperform any summer tyre or AW tyre on wet tarmac.

I'm using Michelin Alpin A5 now, wife have Nokian WR d3. Both have shallow tread compared to Nordic type of winter tyres.

 

[krzyss]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
...Second type is more common; central European winter tyres. Essentially, tyres designed for use on wet, dry tarmac, with occasional snow for use on motorways and high speeds. Such tyres will outperform any summer tyre or AW tyre on wet tarmac.
...


Not sure where you get your info but per my understanding the wet road is the worst possible condition for winter tires.

http://www.auto-swiat.pl/porady/test-opo...ajlepsze/jnk8sd

Polish version of Auto Bild winter tire test. Aquaplaning test:
Summer tire - 83.5 km/h
best winter - 81.3 km/h

Lateral Aquaplaning (g=9.81m/s2)
best winter - 4.11 m/s2 => 0.42g
summer - 3.71 m/s2 => 0.38g

only two winter tires were better than summer (Dunlop and Goodyear).

wet handling (slalom)
3 winters beat summer (not sure what summer tire was used, probably not the best one available): Dunlop, Goodyear, Continental

wet handling (circle)
Summer tire wins, barely 12.6 sec vs 13.0 the best winter.

wet braking
80km/h-0 (50mph-0)
Dunlop 36.8m
Goodyear 36.9m
summer 37.0 m

Dry braking
100km/h-0 (62mph-0)
summer 36.2m
Nokian 39.6m

In my experience winter tires do not beat summer tires in wet. Unless your summer tires are dry only summer tires.

Krzys

 

[jjjxlr8]

It's COLD TEMPERATURE wet performance where the winter tires would typically outperform summer tires.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
To add my share to this confusion,

In Europe we have essentially two types of winter tyres and one all weather type.
All weather is a "snow flake" rated tyre that perform mediocrely in central / south Europe, both in dry, summer and in winter conditions. They are MEGA expensive and not popular at all.

First type of winter tyres are Nordic type with deep treads, can be studded. Those are in minority in most of Europe.

Second type is more common; central European winter tyres. Essentially, tyres designed for use on wet, dry tarmac, with occasional snow for use on motorways and high speeds. Such tyres will outperform any summer tyre or AW tyre on wet tarmac.

I'm using Michelin Alpin A5 now, wife have Nokian WR d3. Both have shallow tread compared to Nordic type of winter tyres.


Isn't there a third type?

It sits in between Studdable/Studded and central European. Using Nokian as an example...
1) Hakkapeliitta 8 is the Studdable/Studded

2) Hakka R2 is the intermediate tire not mentioned, for areas which studded tires not allowed, or less ice.

3) WR D & A (since they have 2 generations of each right now, D3/D4 and A3/A4, until they phase out the D3 & A3)

4) Weatherproof (but, for the US/Canada market, the WR A3 and WR D3 collectively are called the WR G3, and marketed as all-weather tires, prior to the development of the Weatherproof).

or if you want to retain the 2 classes of winter tires, then, it would be Studded vs friction.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: jjjxlr8
It's COLD TEMPERATURE wet performance where the winter tires would typically outperform summer tires.


Precisely, winter tyres work best when ambient temperatures drop under 7* Celsius and lower. For those circumstances central European tyres are specifically designed. Wet, cold and occasionally light snow conditions. But also tyres have to perform on dry tarmac.

This is where Nordic type fails, wet and dry roads.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: chrisri
To add my share to this confusion,

In Europe we have essentially two types of winter tyres and one all weather type.
All weather is a "snow flake" rated tyre that perform mediocrely in central / south Europe, both in dry, summer and in winter conditions. They are MEGA expensive and not popular at all.

First type of winter tyres are Nordic type with deep treads, can be studded. Those are in minority in most of Europe.

Second type is more common; central European winter tyres. Essentially, tyres designed for use on wet, dry tarmac, with occasional snow for use on motorways and high speeds. Such tyres will outperform any summer tyre or AW tyre on wet tarmac.

I'm using Michelin Alpin A5 now, wife have Nokian WR d3. Both have shallow tread compared to Nordic type of winter tyres.


Isn't there a third type?

It sits in between Studdable/Studded and central European. Using Nokian as an example...
1) Hakkapeliitta 8 is the Studdable/Studded

2) Hakka R2 is the intermediate tire not mentioned, for areas which studded tires not allowed, or less ice.

3) WR D & A (since they have 2 generations of each right now, D3/D4 and A3/A4, until they phase out the D3 & A3)

4) Weatherproof (but, for the US/Canada market, the WR A3 and WR D3 collectively are called the WR G3, and marketed as all-weather tires, prior to the development of the Weatherproof).

or if you want to retain the 2 classes of winter tires, then, it would be Studded vs friction.


You certainly have a point, but it has to be said that under EU categorisation all "snowflake and a mountain" mark tyres fall under same category. Central European tyres isn't separate category in legal terms, more a reasoned response from the tyre manufacturers for something more appropriate in mild winters.

After three years my winter tyres are usually on a change mark. Than I simply leave them for one summer and pull free 10k out of them.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Michelin Primacy 3 is sold here by the way.
Anyway to sum u your point:
I drive my 170hp CUV in 30f Ohio weather all happy on A/S tires. Then suddenly snow hits (and I know OH weather) and what you do? Pray?
It does not matter whether you CUV has 170, 270 or 370hp, in 30f at 60mph NOTHNG brakes like winter tire, whether that is Blizzak WS-80, Michelin Xi2, Continental Si etc.
That kind of argument is responsible for traffic, injuries and deaths on HWY's in winter.
I can see your argument running A/S tires in May or even summer (I run Continental DWS on Tiguan and Bridgestone Dualer H/L on BMW in summer) but from 11/01 until 05/01 or even 05/15, ONLY winter tires! For example, this Thursday we might get night snow here in Colorado. A/S tires "should do OK." However, running them after 11/01 is playing with life or being a....le who is creating traffic.


The point you missed is location. While it may make sense for Colorado..

What about Ohio. An inch of flakes that are melting.. my Premier A/S will have no issue with.
When forecast calls for highs staying in the 40's and snow I change over to blizzak ws-80.. takes about an hour as I do my brake inspection/lube at same time. Some All-Season tires have more resistance to slush-planing than some winter tires.

I guess the biggest issue is your statements are too broad and generalized to be true everywhere in every condition/weather/location.

We still have 50's sometimes 60's in November. Its not 1802 we have weather forecasting that is reasonably accurate. What makes sense in Colorado may not make since in Atlanta, or Ohio.

Now If I lived on the side of a mountain or in Alaska.. those are entirely different conditions.

You ask if I pray if snow hits? no, If its mid-november chances are its 1 inches of flakes and the road is still 40F from the previous day. If there is a blizzard forecast.. I would have already switched over to winter tires. You say you know Ohio weather.. but even in Ohio it varies from place to place. From vary mild near Marietta.. to Snowmageddon by me in the lake effect snow belt.

If I lived near Marietta I would probably not even use winter tires.. get a set of yokohama g015 severe snow rated all terrains .. or a similar tire.

Since I live in the snow belt.. I run blizzaks WHEN NEEDED.

Front Range in Colorado has milder winters then OH, with more then 300 sunny days.
I traveled a lot through OH, north to south, east to west, and you are right, climate differs. However, if you drive from home to work then pick up groceries, then yeah, switching tires when weatherman says it will be bad maybe (just maybe) makes some sense. If you actually travel somewhere, not sure how that works, unless every time you travel somewhere in February you put Blizzaks. Based on what you saying, I would just put Michelin Xi3 on the car since they have a lot of attributes of all season tires with really good ice grip (not so much deep snow and slush).

 

[SubLGT]

One of my favorite sources for comprehensive and reliable studless and studded winter tire test data, the Norwegian Automobile Federation, aka www.naf.no, is apparently no longer publishing the in depth data for free access to all. They are only showing the final overall score.

To see the full test data (generated from testing at Test World in Finland) you have to pay for it, at the Motor Magazine website. AFAIK, all the Scandinavian magazines have switched to a "pay it to see it" model for their winter tire test data. That's a shame, as the winter tire testing data coming from the Scandinavian publications is far superior to what we in the USA get from CR, or TireRack, or C&D magazine

Will have to wait and see what the Russian publications AutoReview and ZaRulem do with this years testing results.

I wonder how long ADAC will continue to offer free access to all their "performance winters" test data?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: SubLGT
One of my favorite sources for comprehensive and reliable studless and studded winter tire test data, the Norwegian Automobile Federation, aka www.naf.no, is apparently no longer publishing the in depth data for free access to all. They are only showing the final overall score.

To see the full test data (generated from testing at Test World in Finland) you have to pay for it, at the Motor Magazine website. AFAIK, all the Scandinavian magazines have switched to a "pay it to see it" model for their winter tire test data. That's a shame, as the winter tire testing data coming from the Scandinavian publications is far superior to what we in the USA get from CR, or TireRack, or C&D magazine

Will have to wait and see what the Russian publications AutoReview and ZaRulem do with this years testing results.

I wonder how long ADAC will continue to offer free access to all their "performance winters" test data?


I think ADAC will offer for for free considering they are German AAA and actually governmental agency.

 

[SubLGT]

NAF did give us a teaser look at the ice braking (50km/hr - 0) data:

Michelin Xi3: 55.7m
Blizzak WS80: 58.9m
Nokian R2: 61.7m

As usual, the studded Nokian Hakka8 had the shortest braking distance on ice: 39.7m

The longest braking distance belonged to a Continental "central European winter tire" (model unknown) : 77.9m

https://www.motor.no/tester/dekktester/test-av-piggdekk-og-piggfrie-vinterdekk-2016/

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: SubLGT
NAF did give us a teaser look at the ice braking (50km/hr - 0) data:

Michelin Xi3: 55.7m
Blizzak WS80: 58.9m
Nokian R2: 61.7m

As usual, the studded Nokian Hakka8 had the shortest braking distance on ice: 39.7m

The longest braking distance belonged to a Continental "central European winter tire" (model unknown) : 77.9m

https://www.motor.no/tester/dekktester/test-av-piggdekk-og-piggfrie-vinterdekk-2016/

There are several Conti tires there, and there is NO WAY that result is from TS850 or new TS860.

 

[SubLGT]

Here are the latest winter tire reviews (not tests) from Canada's APA:

http://www.apa.ca/wintertire_reviews.asp

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Here are the latest winter tire reviews (not tests) from Canada's APA:

http://www.apa.ca/wintertire_reviews.asp


If WS-80 is anything like DM-V2 (same generation) on ice, I simply cannot understand how they ended up at first place.

 

[SubLGT]

One comment I often read about studded tires is that "studded tires have no traction on dry and wet pavement". The truth is that on dry and wet pavement, premium studded tires are no worse at dry/wet braking than premium studless tires.

That is what I have seen over the last 5 years (at least) from overseas tests. The most recent example being the 2015 test from AutoReview in Russia. They tested 11 different studded tires, and 7 different studless tires. (Strangely, no tires from Michelin or Bridgestone were tested, but Goodyear, Nokian, and Continental were tested).

In the wet braking test at 4 degC (39 degF), the "top ten" shortest stopping distances were claimed by 9 studded tires, and one studless tire.

In the dry braking test at 8 degC (46 degF), the "top ten" shortest stopping distances were claimed by 5 studded and 5 studless tires.

If you want winter tires with superior traction on wet or dry pavement, get a set of performance winters instead of studless or studded tires.