Forester XT and WRX Recall - LSPI?

[Virtus_Probi]

Just get a letter from Subaru yesterday saying to bring my FXT in for ECU reprogramming and inspection for plug and engine damage due to possible predetonation. Seems very likely to me that this is an LSPI issue, glad that I have been sticking with low calcium oils lately.
I know that the plugs are a PITA to get to in this engine and I hope they just replace them while they're in there...I would ask them to change them even if they find they are not damaged, but I'm sure they would just charge me for them no matter what then.

 

[wemay]

Great post Virtus_Probi. I wonder what Hyundai will do considering they have a contract to recommend Shell Helix worldwide and Quaker State in the U.S.(high calcium oils). Although up 'til now we haven't seen an issue with anything other than the aforementioned first year Veloster Turbo.

The question beckons, is it the oil companies that need to change formulation or the vehicle mfrs that need to adjust technology.

We'll see how this plays out.

 

[Danno]

I call it a reformulation because the low calciums are out there. All the car manufacturers have to do is spec an oil that can only be met with low calcium, and the oil manufacturers would have to play along or not sell oil to that spec. Similar to Dexos scenario.

I realize I am oversimplifying this but at the end of the day, oil companies service the auto sector needs, not the other way around.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Yes, a very big question, wemay.
I thought that I had read that the upcoming 0W16 oils will be more or less calcium free, but I haven't been able to google up anything about that topic this morning. Not sure if magnesium based detergents can completely replace calcium based ones in motor oil? Guess that 0W16 might not be a great choice for turbos, anyway.
Interesting thread from the Veloster Turbo driver's site about Toyota introducing a 0W20 oil without calcium for turbos...again, a thin oil.
http://www.velosterturbo.org/forum/velos...rbo-motors.html

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Just get a letter from Subaru yesterday saying to bring my FXT in for ECU reprogramming and inspection for plug and engine damage due to possible predetonation. Seems very likely to me that this is an LSPI issue, glad that I have been sticking with low calcium oils lately.
I know that the plugs are a PITA to get to in this engine and I hope they just replace them while they're in there...I would ask them to change them even if they find they are not damaged, but I'm sure they would just charge me for them no matter what then.



From the recall letter I just received:

Quote:
Subaru has developed a modification to the Engine Control Module (ECM) software logic due to a possible pre-ignition issue on certain 2015 model year WRX vehicles and certain 2014 and 2015 model year 2.0XT Forester vehicles, equipped with a 2.0 liter turbocharged engine.

DESCRIPTION
Under certain high engine load driving conditions, engine combustion may occur prior to spark ignition resulting in elevated cylinder temperatures and pressures. This could cause a rough idle and engine noise, and if left unaddressed it could lead to excessive erosion of the spark plugs and possible engine damage.

REPAIR
Subaru will inspect your vehicle and reprogram the ECM. If any related spark plug or engine damage is detected during the inspection, your vehicle will be repaired.

 

[Donald]

So not the 2.5 engine I have in my 2015 Forester.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: Donald
So not the 2.5 engine I have in my 2015 Forester.


Nope, just the 2.0l DIT engine in the newer WRXs and FXTs.
I would guess the older 2.5l turbos in the WRX STIs will also not be affected, they are not DITs.

 

[cmhj]

Good info

 

[Jake777]

I thought the jury was still out on the cause of LSPI. I don't think they know for sure its high calcium. The only document I have seen was where they reported there "could be a connection to higher calcium levels". the below article gives more detail.

https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp

Also. http://papers.sae.org/2014-32-0092/

It has been hypothesized that one cause of such abnormal combustion is the intrusion of engine oil droplets into the combustion chamber where they become a source of ignition. It has also been reported that varying the composition of engine oil additives can change susceptibility to abnormal combustion. However, the mechanisms involved are not well understood,

 

[wemay]

Not only those studies but Pennzoil has also chimed in on this issue. They too believe Calcium plays a role as addressed in their question/answer segment here on BITOG. Too many acknowledgments of a connection from different sources for there not to be nexus.

 

[gathermewool]

I've got an appointment Monday to have this looked into, along with some other items I want documented, but fully expected a response of, "could not duplicate":

1. Passenger seat-belt chime will sound occasionally, even if no one/thing is in the seat. Hitting the seat and adjusting its position at a stop sign or light does nothing, and the only solution is to buckle the seatbelt.

2. The nav. display will occasionally stay at full brightness, even with the lights on - very distracting at night!

3. Windshield squirters are now nearly useless. They were literally the best I've ever had in a car, but now suck.

4. Driver-side leather isn't looking too good after only 33k miles (definitely not expecting anything on this one.)

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I've got an appointment Monday to have this looked into, along with some other items I want documented, but fully expected a response of, "could not duplicate":

1. Passenger seat-belt chime will sound occasionally, even if no one/thing is in the seat. Hitting the seat and adjusting its position at a stop sign or light does nothing, and the only solution is to buckle the seatbelt.

2. The nav. display will occasionally stay at full brightness, even with the lights on - very distracting at night!

3. Windshield squirters are now nearly useless. They were literally the best I've ever had in a car, but now suck.

4. Driver-side leather isn't looking too good after only 33k miles (definitely not expecting anything on this one.)


Do you use Rain-X washer fluid or anything like it?
I have seen a few instances online of people claiming it clogged their sprayers.

 

[bluesubie]

gathermewool - Didn't you also take your car in for a couple of ECM reflashes early on?

Guys make sure the dealer also does a leakdown test which will tell you if the reflash alone will fix it.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I've got an appointment Monday to have this looked into, along with some other items I want documented, but fully expected a response of, "could not duplicate":

1. Passenger seat-belt chime will sound occasionally, even if no one/thing is in the seat. Hitting the seat and adjusting its position at a stop sign or light does nothing, and the only solution is to buckle the seatbelt.

2. The nav. display will occasionally stay at full brightness, even with the lights on - very distracting at night!

3. Windshield squirters are now nearly useless. They were literally the best I've ever had in a car, but now suck.

4. Driver-side leather isn't looking too good after only 33k miles (definitely not expecting anything on this one.)


Do you use Rain-X washer fluid or anything like it?
I have seen a few instances online of people claiming it clogged their sprayers.


Yes, I have the orange stuff in there now. The spray pattern is terrible compared to how it was new.

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
gathermewool - Didn't you also take your car in for a couple of ECM reflashes early on?

Guys make sure the dealer also does a leakdown test which will tell you if the reflash alone will fix it.


Yep, I had to wait for an ECM reflash to fix the long/hard-start problem I was having, where the car would crank for 4-5 seconds before starting, and sometimes even time out and stop cranking without starting.

I believe that this will be my third ECM reflash...

Lesson learned: never buy a newly redesigned Subaru (probably all makes.)

I'll have to look this up, but are the model years before a major overhaul the most reliable, typically? I wonder how much more reliable a '13 Forester would have been for me. I like this one well enough, but the fact that their tunes are so far off doesn't inspire confidence for long-term reliability.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool


Lesson learned: never buy a newly redesigned Subaru (probably all makes.)


I'd have to agree on the "probably all makes" statement.

 

[gathermewool]

Spark plug inspection: SAT

Leakdown results:
Cylinders 1/2/3/4: 2%/1%/1%/2%

ECM updated

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Spark plug inspection: SAT

Leakdown results:
Cylinders 1/2/3/4: 2%/1%/1%/2%

ECM updated

Good news!

I actually read recently that's it's best to wait until at least the mid-cycle refresh/facelift on a new model. I highly doubt I'll buy a brand new model turbocharged Subaru in the first year again!

Although a turbocharged Crosstrek would be very tempting and maybe they'll have the engine kinks worked out if that car comes to fruition.

 

[gathermewool]

Same here, but, as you alluded to, it all depends. The WRX and FXT will have their own assortment of issues, but, considering they share nearly identical engines, there will be some overlap.

So, if the 2.0DIT (and maybe the WRX's AT/MT options) is dropped into a very-slightly-modified Crosstrek, then one COULD make the argument for less risk of problems.

Anyway, I'm not due to replace the Civic for at least another 3-4 years...so, here's hoping there's not a turbo diesel Subie or turbo-anything Crosstrek to tempt me.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

I noticed on subaruforester.com that some drivers have reported they will be getting new engines. There is also some controversy over what constitutes a failed leakdown test, with a quote from SOA saying that they are not giving the dealers numbers for how to determine that...guess they are saying to follow whatever the directions for the particular piece of equipment being used for the test recommend. Seems odd to me!

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I noticed on subaruforester.com that some drivers have reported they will be getting new engines. There is also some controversy over what constitutes a failed leakdown test, with a quote from SOA saying that they are not giving the dealers numbers for how to determine that...guess they are saying to follow whatever the directions for the particular piece of equipment being used for the test recommend. Seems odd to me!


^^^That would definitely upset me!^^^



@gathermewool - congrats on the good numbers.