DIFFERENT OILS AND NO FILTER ON ENGINE

[Bill J.]

Bob, just a thought.

The additives left in the Moly Bond oil are less than what was left in the Blend. Not a real lot, but less?

Although I haven't found a virgin analysis of Moly Bond to look at, could it be that the Molybond has a lower amount of additives, thereby allowing the base oil with a lesser additive package to do it's job even more effectively than the blend which has more volume taken up by additives? Does the base oil without the added percentage of synthetic work better by itself?

After all Schaeffer's has been improving on Moly Bond for decades.

That was a dramatic drop in lead with the Moly Bond.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

actually bill, according to our chemist and lab techs they tell me the additive chemistry is identical between the blend and molybond for the most part and that the moly ppms started out the same. 85ppm's on moly for 7k is not un usual and consistant to other analysis. The base oil of the mineral is primarily the same as well with addition of pao to the moly bond. I know this is not the exact chemistry but put in simple words, that's the basic comparision between the blend and mineral.

 

[Neil Womack]

Now Bob the next logical step would be to go back to the #700 blend with a Fram filter and see if the wear numbers improve over the M1 filter numbers. I'll spring for the cost of the Fram.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Not a bad idea neil except I think I'm going to try and run this oil out further to see just how far before it goes bust.

 

[Patman]

Bob, what factors will make you determine when you want to take out this oil?

In my own extended interval test there are a few things I will consider when I decide to take out the oil. I figure when oxidation hits 50%, if any of the wear metals hit 100ppm, when silicon hits about 30 or 40, if fuel goes above 2% or when TBN goes below 4. Any one of these factors will tell me it's time to take out my oil. Does this sound correct to you?

I am going to be working with Terry Dyson's guidance too, so I'm sure he'll have his own set of factors as to when he recommends taking out the oil too.

[ December 22, 2002, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[Terry]

Hey Bob, I am finally working an interpretation on this series of tests and need some additional info; sorry I have taken so long to get back to you.

What oil type and weight was used from 70,000
( purchased by you) and change intervals were used prior to the first of the 4 samples ?

Was nuetra used to purge prior to the first of the 4 tests?

Were you running a fuel treat during each of these tests? What was it and how much,how often?

How much makeup oil was added between the filter change and top up oil on the blend test, if any?

Any repairs or changes to the engine, besides the air filter replace while using the Moly bond?

My wife say I WILL go to a movie NOW, back later. Hey she's wearing my pants.

Terry

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry:

What oil type and weight was used from 70,000
( purchased by you) and change intervals were used prior to the first of the 4 samples ?
Best I can tell, the previous owner used GTX at 3k drains.

Was nuetra used to purge prior to the first of the 4 tests? Yes, I used neutra on the first oil change. The first oil analysis you see had neutra put into the oil at the last 4,000 miles of that analysis. This is when I had visited you in Texas and at that time I had the neutra in it. You'll notice that this 10k drain was 1 qt low due to the excessive speeds I drove at long periods of time. I pulled an analysis sample without adding any oil to this low oil, so it was expected to have slightly elevated viscosity. Oil was changed at that time.

Were you running a fuel treat during each of these tests? What was it and how much,how often?
Neutra in all, but at varing levels and frequencies. Nothing set, sometimes a full bottle, sometimes half, alot of times none. On the last analysis with molybond, I had used the LC oil treatment one time a 2ounces? and about 3 ounces of 132. That treatment was at the begining of the last analysis and I did use the LC fuel treatment for 2 tanks but failed to reconize any differences so I dis continued it's use after two treatments.

How much makeup oil was added between the filter change and top up oil on the blend test, if any? No additional oil was added to any of these analysis. All oil and filters were used from start to finish. At present, at 207 miles past the last analysis on the molybond, I just replaced the fram oil filter and top'd off 1/2 qt. This is the first addition of oil I have used during this whole trial. My sampling method is with the use of a sample pump which only pulls a small amount of oil out and isn't enough to replace.

Any repairs or changes to the engine, besides the air filter replace while using the Moly bond?
No, there has been no other repairs done to this engine

Terry

---

 

[Terry]

Test commentary:

First of all this test is meaningful and shows that a well formulated oil( regardless of base oil) can protect well at reasonable cost.
Even when it is primarily designed for HDD applications like 15w-40 7000 Blend.

Small aluminum head 4 cylinders need contant oil flow to work properly.

Oil filters that are dense will cause increased wear,particularily with oils that are thick and primarily designed for diesels.

Namely, this oil lacks magnesium in this case not being used because of reliance on the calcium in these formulations.

Note that the 5w-30 and 10w-30 7000 blends use Mg in the 100 to 300ppm level( depending on api spec) for increased detergency that gas engines demand.

Lower sump levels stress a oil as most here have discussed, running a lower oil level on the blend contributed to increased heat stress to oil, oxidation and viscosity.Higher Mg would have helped in this case.

Nuetra purge prior to starting test on blend actually increased copper,lead, levels over what would be normally seen. Note the drop in lead and copper on second blend analysis as nuetra effect diminishes. This is not a negative just cleaning achieved by esters that was exacerbated by the M1 filter going in and out of bypass allowing heat and oxidizers to deplete the oil and increase vis. As the bypass spring wore and was heat cycled on the M1 filter I question if it came out of bypass in the later stages of operation.

The Labs zinc and phos levels are not consistant over the test. I can't explain it but it is not a problem since we have a accurate idea of what add levels are in these oils.

Oil filter bypass or interupted flow caused increased iron wear particularily on cold start in my opinion. Follow the increased iron wear as filter fills with wear particles.

Fuel adds are influencing lead and copper, still cleaning residuals.

LC/FP and 132 are difficult to see in this test and as such are neutral in affectation.

Conclusion, Both oils are great oils, the moly bond is getting a free ride as the Blend had to take a beating for the reasons discussed above.

At 10,500 miles switch back to 15w-40 7000 blend and I believe the wear results will be equal to or less than the Moly bond. Both results are safe and acceptable, aside from thickening of the blend at 10,000 miles.

Use a filter changed at 5000 to 7000 miles in this engine that provides more filtering/flow at less efficiency allowing smaller particles to flow while large stuff is trapped.

Airfilter is working well, new one even 2 um less. No dirt ingression, what you see as si is anti foam.

Questions, please ask.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

I was thinking of going with a lower viscosity oil next but right now, I'm going to stick with the 15w40 mineral oil and switch back to a m1 filter for another 4k run after I'm done extending this mineral oil out which I'm not sure when that might be.

The purpose it to see how the wear numbers will turn out and see if they start to increase again with the mineral oil as well.

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry:
Test commentary:

Airfilter is working well, new one even 2 um less. No dirt ingression, what you see as si is anti foam.

Questions, please ask.

---

Terry, how do you tell how much Si is represented as anti-foam ? as opposed to dirt ?. Do all of the basic oils have anti-foam represented as Si at a certain level in ppm ? . Just wondering how much of our Si readings are actually dirt ?.

Any info would be great.

 

[Terry]

Idrink, use the clean oil sample from the same lab you use to pull the used oil sample to determine that level. That will help determine the clean Si level and discern between dirt and and bonding agent leachate.

Note that can vary and is not set in stone, thats why these are called "trend analysis".

 

[billman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry:

Use a filter changed at 5000 to 7000 miles in this engine that provides more filtering/flow at less efficiency allowing smaller particles to flow while large stuff is trapped.

Questions, please ask.

---

Nice, detailed analysis. I can see why people will pay for an "extra" interpretation.

How does one know what kind of filter does what you are recommending? Does your recommendation only apply when trying to do extended drains?

 

[Terry]

I would give the customer suggestions without regard to brand or hype and from experience in seeing hundreds of analysis reports.

In this engine a motorcraft would be my choice, Ford engineers want a higher flow rate less restriction but you'll give up some efficiency for it. I personally prefer a filter that catches 20 um and above particles all the time and doesn't go into bypass every time the engine farts. Motorcraft will not be to expensive and can be found about anywhere.

This recomendation is not just for extended drains.

Thank you for your compliment billman.

 

[Americanflag]

Terry, not to ask a stupid question but I am from Arkansas afterall and new to this car stuff.

If I am driving a late model Ford V-8, would you recommend that I use a Motorcraft filter over a Mobil 1 (assuming price is not a consideration but only engine protection)?

Also, assuming K&N Air filter, Mobil 1 oil, changes every 3,000 miles. Does this sound like a good plan?

I was going to use the Mobil 1 till I saw your posts.

 

[Terry]

Welcome "Old Glory", Arkansas is a great place for chiggers, at least in Western Ark

I currently live in a similar environ.

Stick with the Motorcraft, I have had good luck with K&N airfilters if serviced properly when its time to clean, go longer than 3000 on M1 to get you $'s worth. 5000 miles in a healthy engine. If Money is not an issue use Redline oil, run the thinnest Redline you can as it does not shear.

Take a sample to confirm your changes are working.

 

[rob-the-oil-nut]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
BTW, I do all my oil samples using this type of pump..

---

I can get one through WearCheck? You do all your sampling through the dipstick tube?
THANKS!
Rob

[ February 28, 2003, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Yes, I do all my samples through the dip stick tube.

As for where, I know amsoil reps can get them, Tim in ark with schaeffers may have them, not sure though, and I'd suspect that many oil analysis companies could carry them as this is a really good way to stay consitant on pulling samples without any mess.

 

[Greg]

find a clear thin tube, clean, stick it in the dipstick hole and suck it full of oil, put your thumb on the end, then take it out and put it in the cup and release your thumb. repeat.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

quote:

---

Originally posted by In a World Called Catastrophe:
find a clear thin tube, clean, stick it in the dipstick hole and suck it full of oil, put your thumb on the end, then take it out and put it in the cup and release your thumb. repeat.

---

Bad idea IMO, you will inject moisture off your mouth, and dirt off your finger into your sample.

BTW, I use the walmart cheap clear air line hose used in aquariums for my replacement hose on this unit. I draw my sample by keeping the car running from where ever I came from, then when I have everything setup, I shut the engine off, stick the tube and draw out hot oil immediatly. Dont think you'd want to get that in your mouth by accident.

[ February 28, 2003, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[OneQuartLow]

In that case I recommend a good Neutra-based mouthwash so breakfast doesn't contaminate your sample. Yes, jk.