Zinc Level

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Doing some searching and I see there has been a lot of discussion about it based on getting a zillion hits searching on that term. But I can't read them all.

Does any one know, or know where to point me, to find out what the typical zinc and phosphorus levels were over the years going back say to the 60's thru 2009? Say SAE SB, SC, SD ... to SM
 
Went to API site and really not much there that I could find. Found a couple pieces of info at PABLO (only phosphorus content), but just for the SJ / SL and SM classifications
 
Seems I recall that in general average PCMO was up to around 1200 ppm z an p at the point of SG SH, then dropped to 1000 for SJ, SL.
 
Thanks for the replies. If anyone else has access to any historical specs, API or manufacturers data sheets I would sure appreciate access to the info.

I have noticed that zinc / phosphorus ratio seems to vary and is not necessarily 1:1

I see SG was still in play 1989 and SH played out in 1996. The drop to 1000 ppm thereafter seems to correlate with the increase in flat tappet related failures. I really would like to know what it was before SG. We have speciality oils with 1500 ppm zinc (Brad Penn) and going back to 91 or so, Kendall GT was listed as high as 1600 ppm zinc. I wonder if the PCMO oils generally available before SG had much more, but maybe never as high as 1500 - 1600 ppm which seemed to be SOP for off the shelf racing oils.

Its mainly a historical interest. There is a lot of interest in one of the muscle car forums I belong too, because historically these are flat tappet cam engines of which many members have had one or more breaking in failure or just going flat (now after find out more facts about each event, some were self inflicted for various causes, but not all). Others with roller cams are obviously not having that problem. Much debate and angst over adding ZDDPlus to off the shelf SM oil and agony over how much zinc is too much. What do the industry experts here say? I did come across a SAE paper extract of a engineer from Ford who did find correlation with flat tappet cam failure with the current low zinc / phosphorus oils.
 
Convert to roller, problem solved
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Not unless you are willing to go to Hydraulic. Solid tapper rollers are not street friendly / reliable.
 
Originally Posted By: RadBOSS
Not unless you are willing to go to Hydraulic. Solid tapper rollers are not street friendly / reliable.


Sure they are. Crower makes a special set of street-friendly solid roller lifters, as does Crane IIRC. Lots of guys in the SBF scene running solid setups.

But Hydraulic is a [censored] of a lot more convenient for sure. Set it and forget it.
 
Well I am still on my quest to get historic info on zinc phosphorus levels on the previous API grades. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.

I will be running Brad Penn and do not think there will any be wear problem related to zinc phosphorus depravation.
 
Originally Posted By: RadBOSS
Well I am still on my quest to get historic info on zinc phosphorus levels on the previous API grades. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.

I will be running Brad Penn and do not think there will any be wear problem related to zinc phosphorus depravation.


Don't know if this helps, but many engine builders recommend diesel oil for that very reason.

The levels of antiwear additives in those oils; like 15w40 and 5w40 are substantially higher than those in passenger car oils.
 
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Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: RadBOSS
Not unless you are willing to go to Hydraulic. Solid tapper rollers are not street friendly / reliable.


Sure they are. Crower makes a special set of street-friendly solid roller lifters, as does Crane IIRC. Lots of guys in the SBF scene running solid setups.

But Hydraulic is a [censored] of a lot more convenient for sure. Set it and forget it.


It's always funny to tell the Honda "racers" the solid cam car has valvetrain problems causing the clatter. I almost feel guilty but we've gotten them to give us a carlength headstart due to the clatter.
 
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: RadBOSS
Not unless you are willing to go to Hydraulic. Solid tapper rollers are not street friendly / reliable.


Sure they are. Crower makes a special set of street-friendly solid roller lifters, as does Crane IIRC. Lots of guys in the SBF scene running solid setups.

But Hydraulic is a [censored] of a lot more convenient for sure. Set it and forget it.


It's always funny to tell the Honda "racers" the solid cam car has valvetrain problems causing the clatter. I almost feel guilty but we've gotten them to give us a carlength headstart due to the clatter.




HAHAHHAHAHAH

A pile of 'stangs were lured into racing a GN with a lappy in it using a similar method. Owner had a couple of tunes on it, and one of them made it run like [censored] so that people would want to race him.

Once lined up, all of a sudden the attitude changed and the guy he was racing was like "uh oh!"
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: RadBOSS
Well I am still on my quest to get historic info on zinc phosphorus levels on the previous API grades. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.

I will be running Brad Penn and do not think there will any be wear problem related to zinc phosphorus depravation.


Don't know if this helps, but many engine builders recommend diesel oil for that very reason.

The levels of antiwear additives in those oils; like 15w40 and 5w40 are substantially higher than those in passenger car oils.


The Shell Rotella is a good example of that but even within the last year its zinc level was reduced from 1400 ppm down to 1200 or so ppm to meet the new GL(?) requirements.

Its only the specialty oils like Brad Penn, Joe Gib, Valvoline VR-1 (recently increased zinc level), Redline et al are the only ones offering 1300 ppm or more out of the bottle, vs adding a few ounces of ZDDPlus to the oil change for the same effect.
 
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
I'd think 1200 ppm is sufficient. Worry when the next phase lowers the zddp in HDMO further.

Last I saw, that was not supposed to happen.

There is more to AW than zinc. Zinc just shows up on a UOA.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
There is more to AW than zinc.
Right. And I think I recall reading somewhere that it was the phosphorus not the zinc that actually is the main antiwear agent in zddp.
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The phosphourus plays a part in AW for sure. The two are compounded together and not necessarily in the same proportions for different oil companies.

From what we are seeing, I'd hazard a guess that 1200 ppm zinc is just enough for most, or maybe to sustain an engine that is already broken in. At 1000 ppm brace yourself for disaster for a flat tappet motor, particularly with a performance cam set up. Valvoline just changed their VR-1 from 1300 ppm to 1400 ppm. That may say something for the composition for an oil tailored for flat tappet muscle car motors.
 
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From what we are seeing, I'd hazard a guess that 1200 ppm zinc is just enough for most, or maybe to sustain an engine that is already broken in. At 1000 ppm brace yourself for disaster for a flat tappet motor, particularly with a performance cam set up. Valvoline just changed their VR-1 from 1300 ppm to 1400 ppm. That may say something for the composition for an oil tailored for flat tappet muscle car motors.

It might be worth considering one of the HDEO's offered by the off-road diesel guys (like John Deere's house brand) for a flat tappet musclecar application. They're not worried about cats, only keeping those mega $$$ combines/crawlers/excavators, etc.., functioning, so they tend to load up on the add-packs. I have a VOA on John Deere 0W-40 here made by Esso Canada that shows some pretty potent zinc/phos numbers.

Heck, even the old CI-4+ RTS 5-40 was over 1200 ppm for both zinc/phos, if you can find any (I think I managed to gather up every available jug last year, sorry
grin2.gif
).
 
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