ZF HP8 Transmission Servicing

[RamFan]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
But where are these transmissions failing?? I've not heard of one EVER after a universal ATF has been used. It's nothing but scaremongering.

I was right about that Aisin box in the other thread, the guy has switched back to WS fluid and he's still having issues.

I think question before that one is: Why ZF does not use universal fluid as a first fill? Cheaper, easier etc.


I'm not understanding the question. No manufacturer, that I'm aware of, factory fills with a universal fluid. Why would ZF be the exception here?

Also, why does it have to be universal? Ravenol for instance has a specific fluid, 8HP, for the ZF 8 speed.

 

[UberArchetype]

Originally Posted by RamFan
I'm not understanding the question. No manufacturer, that I'm aware of, factory fills with a universal fluid. Why would ZF be the exception here?

Also, why does it have to be universal? Ravenol for instance has a specific fluid, 8HP, for the ZF 8 speed.

It's really pretty simple, and the same reason anybody does anything: Maximize Revenue. Bottling some oil in a container with your brand on it is an inexpensive way to make a ton of profit if you can convince enough people it's a better choice than the practically similar product in somebody else's container. Whether or not that is actually true to any extent at all matters not. Only the bottom line, funded by the stupid. It works well.

 

[MCompact]

It's refreshing to finally hear from a true expert.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by MCompact
It's refreshing to finally hear from a true expert.

Indeed.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by UberArchetype
It's really pretty simple, and the same reason anybody does anything: Maximize Revenue. Bottling some oil in a container with your brand on it is an inexpensive way to make a ton of profit if you can convince enough people it's a better choice than the practically similar product in somebody else's container. Whether or not that is actually true to any extent at all matters not. Only the bottom line, funded by the stupid. It works well.

My brain cells started to die off when I read this.

 

[donnyj08]

Originally Posted by JTK
Originally Posted by The Critic
IMO, these companies (Valvoline) have very little to lose by putting out a universal product that claims to meet spec. Most of these products are being used in high mileage vehicles that are either out-of-warranty or a trans failure can be attributed to many other potential reasons.


I don't agree with this.

I'm not a legal expert, but have worked in various corporate environments for many years. Corporations spend a chunk of their resources ensuring that they're not putting themselves in a bad legal position. They are not going to say their product is "suitable for use" when it's not.

On the other hand, If I worked on vehicles for a living and was working on a customer's vehicle, I would likely use fluids as spec'd by the manufacturer.



I agree, Valvoline isn't a no name fluid blender. They have been a world class blender for quite some time.

OP,
You can use the Maxlife universal or the ZF fluid, at the end of the day it's your car and your call.

I run Maxlife in my vehicles, however neither one have a terribly expensive Transmission to replace. In your shoes I would probably use the ZF Fluid.

On the other hand the Maxlife would likely work just as well and being a 5series BMW it will be worth basically nothing in 5-10 years anyway due to high depreciation.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by donnyj08
Originally Posted by JTK
Originally Posted by The Critic
IMO, these companies (Valvoline) have very little to lose by putting out a universal product that claims to meet spec. Most of these products are being used in high mileage vehicles that are either out-of-warranty or a trans failure can be attributed to many other potential reasons.


I don't agree with this.

I'm not a legal expert, but have worked in various corporate environments for many years. Corporations spend a chunk of their resources ensuring that they're not putting themselves in a bad legal position. They are not going to say their product is "suitable for use" when it's not.

On the other hand, If I worked on vehicles for a living and was working on a customer's vehicle, I would likely use fluids as spec'd by the manufacturer.



I agree, Valvoline isn't a no name fluid blender. They have been a world class blender for quite some time.

OP,
You can use the Maxlife universal or the ZF fluid, at the end of the day it's your car and your call.

I run Maxlife in my vehicles, however neither one have a terribly expensive Transmission to replace. In your shoes I would probably use the ZF Fluid.

On the other hand the Maxlife would likely work just as well and being a 5series BMW it will be worth basically nothing in 5-10 years anyway due to high depreciation.



Probably still worth more than SIlverado same age. I am not sure where you getting your numbers. And no, ZF is not any more expensive to replace than transmission in other similar vehicles. What works for OP if he uses Maxlife is that ZF8 today is by far best transmission on the market, performance, reliability and any other way around. So, it is possible that there is much more flexibility there.

 

[MCompact]

More sour grapes in a BMW themed thread.
Didn't see that coming...

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
But where are these transmissions failing?? I've not heard of one EVER after a universal ATF has been used. It's nothing but scaremongering.

I was right about that Aisin box in the other thread, the guy has switched back to WS fluid and he's still having issues.

I think question before that one is: Why ZF does not use universal fluid as a first fill? Cheaper, easier etc.

It's a heck of a question. I recall someone on here (Gary Allen?) asking just why do we need so many different ATF's? For decades there was just two, Dex and type F. Then Dodge had to make something to keep their Caravan transmissions from imploding, and it's seems to be downhill from there.

I can see why CVT's need a different fluid but everything else makes me wonder, just what are they fixing with some silly fluid when they could have just designed it better in the first place?

To each their own. In the end trans fluid is cheap in the scheme of things.

 

[UberArchetype]

Originally Posted by supton
...what are they fixing with some silly fluid when they could have just designed it better in the first place?

The ignorance in this post is deafening. Fix what? The friction material composition? Because that was a deliberate design choice, and worked EXCEEDINGLY well for units running the proper fluid.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
But where are these transmissions failing?? I've not heard of one EVER after a universal ATF has been used. It's nothing but scaremongering.

I was right about that Aisin box in the other thread, the guy has switched back to WS fluid and he's still having issues.

I think question before that one is: Why ZF does not use universal fluid as a first fill? Cheaper, easier etc.

It's a heck of a question. I recall someone on here (Gary Allen?) asking just why do we need so many different ATF's? For decades there was just two, Dex and type F. Then Dodge had to make something to keep their Caravan transmissions from imploding, and it's seems to be downhill from there.

I can see why CVT's need a different fluid but everything else makes me wonder, just what are they fixing with some silly fluid when they could have just designed it better in the first place?

To each their own. In the end trans fluid is cheap in the scheme of things.

When other manufacturers (Aisin, GM, Ford, JATCO, etc.) design and make transmission as reliable, as stout, as fast as ZF8, then maybe you can talk about it.
As post before mine said: the amount of ignorance here is astounding.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Myths of Multi-Vehicle ATF

 

[supton]

Aisin makes pretty reliable transmissions--latest models excepted. Last I knew, their 4,5,6 speed transmissions worked just fine over the years. As much as I like to criticize GM for using a 4AT long past its due date--the issues it had was not fluid related, and GM (usually) makes decent automatics (early 700R4's excepted).

I still don't understand why the explosion of different types today. Yes, they work great in the right transmission--but we don't see Toyota only engine oil, BMW only oil, etc.

Am I arguing that people should stop using specific trans oil? Nope. Am I asking a question? Yep. I don't feel like we are gaining all that much, 1% better shifting at the expense of much hang-wrangling over using the right fluid. But to each their own. I'd rather have generic vehicles taking generic fluids using generic repair parts and giving me generic service.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by supton
Aisin makes pretty reliable transmissions--latest models excepted. Last I knew, their 4,5,6 speed transmissions worked just fine over the years. As much as I like to criticize GM for using a 4AT long past its due date--the issues it had was not fluid related, and GM (usually) makes decent automatics (early 700R4's excepted).

I still don't understand why the explosion of different types today. Yes, they work great in the right transmission--but we don't see Toyota only engine oil, BMW only oil, etc.

Am I arguing that people should stop using specific trans oil? Nope. Am I asking a question? Yep. I don't feel like we are gaining all that much, 1% better shifting at the expense of much hang-wrangling over using the right fluid. But to each their own. I'd rather have generic vehicles taking generic fluids using generic repair parts and giving me generic service.

There is TGMO (Toyota Grade Motor Oil), there is BMW TwinPower Turbo (TPT) oil, plus BMW specifications with approval process, MB oil with specifications and approval process, VW oil with specifications and approval process.
Problem with Maxlife is that is designed for let's say Toyota Sienna with transmission designed for dropping kids off at daycare and for BMW M5 with crushing torque etc. In the end, maybe ZF wants certain parameters that are achievable with certain base oils (Borate Esters), same like MB engine oil specification is extremely stringent on deposits and NOACK, BMW on oxidation or VW on wear.
As for previous transmissions by Aisin, yes, they tend to be reliable in uber generic applications. Still, my father in law had to replace 4 speed in Lexus ES300 at 115k. Fluke or not, all transmissions will have few examples of failure, for whatever reasons. But when you are dealing with 4.4 twin tubo engine with truck like torque, you better be sure that fluid is right one.

 

[supton]

Agreed--if you push the limits, the fluid matters more and more.

But does anyone really buy into the idea that TGMO is made of unicorn tears and is required for a Toyota product to make it out of warranty?

I remember when VW rolled out 505.01, many figured it was to fix a problem. Right they were, when many a PD decided to lose a lobe (despite 505.01). Yet many owners were fine on... non-505.01 oil (something more stout but without approvals).

I realize that progress requires evolution of things, but I'm too busy with other things in life to give a rip. Bleeding edge buys me nothing.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by supton
Agreed--if you push the limits, the fluid matters more and more.

But does anyone really buy into the idea that TGMO is made of unicorn tears and is required for a Toyota product to make it out of warranty?

I remember when VW rolled out 505.01, many figured it was to fix a problem. Right they were, when many a PD decided to lose a lobe (despite 505.01). Yet many owners were fine on... non-505.01 oil (something more stout but without approvals).

I realize that progress requires evolution of things, but I'm too busy with other things in life to give a rip. Bleeding edge buys me nothing.


The reality is there a parties outside our control who have a vested interest insuring that question of U ATF vs OE ATF will never get answered.


Take the oil companies for example. Shell makes M-1375.4 (ZF Lifeguard 6, aka Mercon SP) and M-L12108 (ZF Lifeguard 8). Are these fluids really different? Per Valvoline their MaxLife product is suitable for BOTH. Ford says Mercon SP can't be used in transmissions which require MERCON® V, MERCON® LV, but Valvoline says MaxLife is suitable for units which use all of these types of fluids.


Does it just boil down to the fact that the manufacturers know Product X will work because they've only tested their units filled with Product X. Consequently, that's what they're going to recommend.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by supton
Agreed--if you push the limits, the fluid matters more and more.

But does anyone really buy into the idea that TGMO is made of unicorn tears and is required for a Toyota product to make it out of warranty?

I remember when VW rolled out 505.01, many figured it was to fix a problem. Right they were, when many a PD decided to lose a lobe (despite 505.01). Yet many owners were fine on... non-505.01 oil (something more stout but without approvals).

I realize that progress requires evolution of things, but I'm too busy with other things in life to give a rip. Bleeding edge buys me nothing.

No, it is not made out of unicorn. But, it makes easier for Toyota customers to buy what Toyota wants them to use in the engine (European manufacturers are more straightforward, they say: use our oil or ANY oil that are approved for that specification).
Now, this is where things get interesting. BMW for example claims that fluid in ZF8 is lifetime fluid. ZF on other hand says: no, change it between 60-75k. And they are very particular NOT to flush it, but just to change whatever comes out and filter. So, one is driving car, where manufacturer of a car claims that there is no reason to change fluid, while manufacturer of transmission says there is.
Many people use Redline and Maxlife in ZF, but again, if this was my car, same as I did on my X5, I would use ZF. Fluid in grand scheme of things is cheap. And why mixing it in the end? He will drop 5-7qt of fluid, out of 13-15qt. Why mixing ZF fluid with Maxlife?

 

[UberArchetype]

Originally Posted by edyvw
No, it is not made out of unicorn. But, it makes easier for Toyota customers to buy what Toyota wants them to...

This is what they are taught in Marketing 101. Customers love easy. Especially when the personal bandwidth requirement for understanding and knowing the technical and market background is limited. It matters not whether the purpose in any particular application is to enforce warranty compliance, maximize revenue or throttle competition - preferably all three - only that you understand the primary factor driving the market for your dollars in this particular case is marketing, itself.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by UberArchetype
Originally Posted by edyvw
No, it is not made out of unicorn. But, it makes easier for Toyota customers to buy what Toyota wants them to...

This is what they are taught in Marketing 101. Customers love easy. Especially when the personal bandwidth requirement for understanding and knowing the technical and market background is limited. It matters not whether the purpose in any particular application is to enforce warranty compliance, maximize revenue or throttle competition - preferably all three - only that you understand the primary factor driving the market for your dollars in this particular case is marketing, itself.

No. I was involved in developing oil that was specifically aimed at customers of VW. In this case VW communicated with us all the time that primary goal is to make it easier of customers of their cars to make an educated decision what should go into their engines. They charged minuscule fee for approving oil ($4,500). The point is, companies want buyers of their vehicles to buy appropriate product and do not compromise function of an engine, transmission, differentials etc.
Toyota has TGMO, but majority of Toyota dealerships does not use TGMO but other products (for example my local dealership uses Valvoline. I never change it tehre but I know since there is HUGE Valvoline flag and bunch of other signs that they use Valvoline products).
That argument how companies want you to use their fluid as they rack up profits is ridiculous. How much will Toyota make on Toyota WS fluid when fluid goes for $6 a bottle? Or VW? What VW makes by having approval process that costs $4,500 and then their letters are written on the back of the bottle?

 

[nthach]

If it was me, I'd stick to ZF Lifeguard 8. MaxLife is seen as a holy grail fluid here. Afton and Lubrizol also have faith in their ATF add packs being "universal". I've used MaxLife in friend's cars as well as my own with no to little difference, I went back to T-IV or Castrol IMV in my parent's Sienna and a old LS400 calling for T-II fluid.

The big unknown is the ZF fluid specs. While we do know that Lifeguard 6 === Mercon SP and Lifeguard 5 === Esso(Mobil) LT71141, we don't know the specifics of Lifeguard 8 and ZF is kinda tight-lipped about their specs, other than the fact for a few thousand Euros they'll be happy to test your fluid against one of their specs and issue a formal approval if it passes. Basic fluid chemistry and kinetic properties are easy to meet. It's the frictional qualities and other things called for that aren't as easy to meet.

My opinion with MaxLife is that is works well within the "mainstream" specs - those being Dex-VI/Merc-LV(Valvoline hasn't gotten GM and Ford to certify their fluid but all ATFs are built off those standards to start), JASO M315-1A(the spec the Japanese OEMs consider acceptable as "superior type ATF" instead of OEM fluids) and Hyundai/Kia specs. Outside of those specs, it's best to use OEM. Caveat emptor if you decide to use ML.