ZF HP8 Transmission Servicing

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by dave1251
I used MAXLIFE ATF in my ZF-8 and thousands use it also. There is no reason to use ZF fluid it is nothing special.

Sure.

You prepared to replace his transmission if it fails based on your recommendation?

I wonder, do you have the same ZF8 as the OP? Are the internals the same? The programming?

Do you know anything your talking about? Do you know more then Valvoline. It's evident you don't so please continue.

Originally Posted by Mr Nice
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
The CTSC is a good source for parts and instructions when servicing ZF units. Definitely use the ZF pan, definitely use the ZF fluid.

Yep. Spend the extra $50 and get ZF fluid. Why do people always try to save money using non OEM ATF ????

I'm getting a 10 speed auto Camaro and when its time for ATF change it will be OEM and not MaxLife for my GM.

Different transmission different coefficients thus a different transmission fluid. Not applicable to this discussion.

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by dave1251
I used MAXLIFE ATF in my ZF-8 and thousands use it also. There is no reason to use ZF fluid it is nothing special.

Sure.

You prepared to replace his transmission if it fails based on your recommendation?

I wonder, do you have the same ZF8 as the OP? Are the internals the same? The programming?

Do you know anything your talking about? Do you know more then Valvoline. It's evident you don't so please continue.

You know who knows more than Valvoline? ZF.

You've got nothing aside from "Valvoline says it's ok" and "I use it in mine and nothing has broken so it must be good enough."

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Why in the world would a transmission fail from using a non-OEM ATF that meets the manufacturer's specifications? For years I used Amsoil universal ATF in my Saab 9-5, not taking the advice of some ninnies on the Saab forum who said my Aisin transmission would fail if I didn't use the non-synthetic ATF that the manual specifies. The Amsoil ATF met the specific Aisin spec. That car has nearly 200k miles on it and the tranny still runs like a sewing machine.

Great, I'm happy for you. I really am. But...

Your Saab is not a BMW with a ZF8.

I trust ZF more than Valvoline in this case, and so should the OP. There's a recent post on this board of MaxLife not playing nice in an Aisin 8 speed. Valvoline says it should be fine, but it isn't. Is it really worth saving the hundred bucks? How often is he going to change ATF?



There are dozens of more examples of MAXLIFE working just as well as OEM in this transmission. Not to mention thousands with this transmission using a generic DEXRON type fluid. It's a unique transmission your referring to.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Why in the world would a transmission fail from using a non-OEM ATF that meets the manufacturer's specifications? For years I used Amsoil universal ATF in my Saab 9-5, not taking the advice of some ninnies on the Saab forum who said my Aisin transmission would fail if I didn't use the non-synthetic ATF that the manual specifies. The Amsoil ATF met the specific Aisin spec. That car has nearly 200k miles on it and the tranny still runs like a sewing machine.

How would a fluid meet the manufacturer's specifications if the spec is not available for licensing?

Valvoline and other blenders use an additive package from a vendor such as Infineum, Lubrizol, etc. The additive supplier has probably performed some amount of testing, but it is very unlikely that the fluid has been tested in every make/model it is being recommended for. The resources are very limited in the aftermarket.

It is very difficult to prove that a fluid caused a failure. It usually becomes a situation of:

1) OEM denies warranty due to aftermarket fluid (color is usually the dead giveaway). Owner lacks funds or the resources to dispute the claim.
2) The blender (Valvoline) takes a sample of the fluid when a failure occurs, they deem the fluid to be fine. OEM denies coverage due to the wrong fluid. A finger pointing match starts, and then the owner lacks funds (or even time) to hold someone responsible.

In other words, IMO, these companies (Valvoline) have very little to lose by putting out a universal product that claims to meet spec. Most of these products are being used in high mileage vehicles that are either out-of-warranty or a trans failure can be attributed to many other potential reasons.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Why in the world would a transmission fail from using a non-OEM ATF that meets the manufacturer's specifications? For years I used Amsoil universal ATF in my Saab 9-5, not taking the advice of some ninnies on the Saab forum who said my Aisin transmission would fail if I didn't use the non-synthetic ATF that the manual specifies. The Amsoil ATF met the specific Aisin spec. That car has nearly 200k miles on it and the tranny still runs like a sewing machine.

Valvoline is not approved fluid. Valvoline claims it meets specification, which is different.
A lot of people used Valvoline in BMW but usually cut interval. I used ZF6 in my X5 35d. Your BMW has 4.4 twin turbo engine that would crush Aisin transmission in that SAAB. On top of that, you got BMW 550i but now you worry about price of fluid? Did you consider Toyota Camry?

 

[Bailes1992]

There are thousands upon thousand of ZF 8HP out there running on universal ATF's and yet I don't think I've ever heard of one ZF 8HP failure.

I don't understand why everybody has started scaremongering recently when it comes to universal transmission fluids. When has anyone ever heard of a universal ATF damaging anything? The recent thread on here about the Aisin 8 speed gearbox and MaxLife seems far-fetched to me, again, there's thousands of WS applications (WS is nothing special) running MaxLife without any issues, did MaxLife show-up an issue that is somewhat masked on WS fluid? Either way, no damage done.

 

[Joel_MD]

Originally Posted by Bailes1992
There are thousands upon thousand of ZF 8HP out there running on universal ATF's and yet I don't think I've ever heard of one ZF 8HP failure.

I don't understand why everybody has started scaremongering recently when it comes to universal transmission fluids. When has anyone ever heard of a universal ATF damaging anything? The recent thread on here about the Aisin 8 speed gearbox and MaxLife seems far-fetched to me, again, there's thousands of WS applications (WS is nothing special) running MaxLife without any issues, did MaxLife show-up an issue that is somewhat masked on WS fluid? Either way, no damage done.

This captures my way of thinking. It sounds like ZF has convinced (nearly) everybody of certain catastrophic transmission failure for the poor soul who dares to not buy their uber-expensive ATF with the green tint.

Notice how nobody could answer my earlier question of how non-OEM transmission fluid would cause this stout transmission to actually fail? But everybody's heard about "that one guy" who had a problem and lives a life of sadness because he didn't buy the green fluid.

I've been driving for a long time and have owned over a dozen vehicles. The closest I've ever come to transmission failure was worn-out synchros on a 4-speed manual on a Ford F-150 with 240,000 miles on the clock. In my experience, changing ATF early and often, in conjunction with not driving in an abusive manner, keeps an auto transmission running well. Sure, I own a 550i and could afford to buy $100 a gallon ATF, but I'm not going to.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
The CTSC is a good source for parts and instructions when servicing ZF units. Definitely use the ZF pan, definitely use the ZF fluid.

Yep. Spend the extra $50 and get ZF fluid. Why do people always try to save money using non OEM ATF ????

I'm getting a 10 speed auto Camaro and when its time for ATF change it will be OEM and not MaxLife for my GM.

Precisely. The 8HP transmissions in my M235i and X1 will only see ZF ATF.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice

Yep. Spend the extra $50 and get ZF fluid. Why do people always try to save money using non OEM ATF ????

In my case there seemed to be enough anecdotal evidence showing that my transmission didn't care. Had there been no reports from using non-WS I would have been obliged to use WS. Likewise I don't use TGMO in the engine. Too much evidence to the contrary.

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted by The Critic
IMO, these companies (Valvoline) have very little to lose by putting out a universal product that claims to meet spec. Most of these products are being used in high mileage vehicles that are either out-of-warranty or a trans failure can be attributed to many other potential reasons.


I don't agree with this.

I'm not a legal expert, but have worked in various corporate environments for many years. Corporations spend a chunk of their resources ensuring that they're not putting themselves in a bad legal position. They are not going to say their product is "suitable for use" when it's not.

On the other hand, If I worked on vehicles for a living and was working on a customer's vehicle, I would likely use fluids as spec'd by the manufacturer.

 

[AC1DD]

Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Why in the world would a transmission fail from using a non-OEM ATF that meets the manufacturer's specifications? For years I used Amsoil universal ATF in my Saab 9-5, not taking the advice of some ninnies on the Saab forum who said my Aisin transmission would fail if I didn't use the non-synthetic ATF that the manual specifies. The Amsoil ATF met the specific Aisin spec. That car has nearly 200k miles on it and the tranny still runs like a sewing machine.

How would a fluid meet the manufacturer's specifications if the spec is not available for licensing?

Valvoline and other blenders use an additive package from a vendor such as Infineum, Lubrizol, etc. The additive supplier has probably performed some amount of testing, but it is very unlikely that the fluid has been tested in every make/model it is being recommended for. The resources are very limited in the aftermarket.

It is very difficult to prove that a fluid caused a failure. It usually becomes a situation of:

1) OEM denies warranty due to aftermarket fluid (color is usually the dead giveaway). Owner lacks funds or the resources to dispute the claim.
2) The blender (Valvoline) takes a sample of the fluid when a failure occurs, they deem the fluid to be fine. OEM denies coverage due to the wrong fluid. A finger pointing match starts, and then the owner lacks funds (or even time) to hold someone responsible.

In other words, IMO, these companies (Valvoline) have very little to lose by putting out a universal product that claims to meet spec. Most of these products are being used in high mileage vehicles that are either out-of-warranty or a trans failure can be attributed to many other potential reasons.



Good advice to go by is if the car is still within the warranty period only use APPROVED fluids, after that you can try universal fluids, without as much risk.

My own opinion is I would only used APPROVED fluids until the car is nearly used up or worn out, then the universal stuff goes in.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by JTK
Originally Posted by The Critic
IMO, these companies (Valvoline) have very little to lose by putting out a universal product that claims to meet spec. Most of these products are being used in high mileage vehicles that are either out-of-warranty or a trans failure can be attributed to many other potential reasons.


I don't agree with this.

I'm not a legal expert, but have worked in various corporate environments for many years. Corporations spend a chunk of their resources ensuring that they're not putting themselves in a bad legal position. They are not going to say their product is "suitable for use" when it's not.

On the other hand, If I worked on vehicles for a living and was working on a customer's vehicle, I would likely use fluids as spec'd by the manufacturer.

My thought is that there may be some sort of contractual risk transfer in place between the company (Valvoline) and their additive supplier (Lubrizol). It is unrealistic to think that Valvoline would have the financial resources to field and lab test for all of the specs; they are probably relying on Lubrizol. So it wouldn't surprise me if they have some type of agreement in place for Lubrizol to cover any legitimate losses.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
There are thousands upon thousand of ZF 8HP out there running on universal ATF's and yet I don't think I've ever heard of one ZF 8HP failure.

I don't understand why everybody has started scaremongering recently when it comes to universal transmission fluids. When has anyone ever heard of a universal ATF damaging anything? The recent thread on here about the Aisin 8 speed gearbox and MaxLife seems far-fetched to me, again, there's thousands of WS applications (WS is nothing special) running MaxLife without any issues, did MaxLife show-up an issue that is somewhat masked on WS fluid? Either way, no damage done.

This captures my way of thinking. It sounds like ZF has convinced (nearly) everybody of certain catastrophic transmission failure for the poor soul who dares to not buy their uber-expensive ATF with the green tint.

Notice how nobody could answer my earlier question of how non-OEM transmission fluid would cause this stout transmission to actually fail? But everybody's heard about "that one guy" who had a problem and lives a life of sadness because he didn't buy the green fluid.

I've been driving for a long time and have owned over a dozen vehicles. The closest I've ever come to transmission failure was worn-out synchros on a 4-speed manual on a Ford F-150 with 240,000 miles on the clock. In my experience, changing ATF early and often, in conjunction with not driving in an abusive manner, keeps an auto transmission running well. Sure, I own a 550i and could afford to buy $100 a gallon ATF, but I'm not going to.

What s obvious from your post is that you are not sure what do you want to buy. You are not sure whether Valvoline or whatever is "good enough," so you are looking for bias confirmation.
"Notice how nobody could answer my earlier question..." You are bashing people who answered to you because you did not get an answer that would confirm your bias. No one is going to tell you how non OE transmission fluid is going to hurt tranny. Why? Because that is scientific process. It could be friction modifiers, it could be oxidation, it could be 100 other things. That is why there are OE fluids, and that is why there are approvals for engine oils, for example, so you do not ask these questions.
But, since you are so experienced, why don't you buy Valvoline, change it, and than after 60k do UOA and post results for us to see?

 

[demarpaint]

How much does it cost to replace a ZF transmission in the vehicle in question? That alone might influence my decision regarding which fluid to use. Universal one size fits all products never really thrilled me. But opinions vary. In the end if it works the user saved money, and if it causes the transmission to fail sooner rather than later, it cost the user money. My bet is if the vehicle was under warranty a universal fluid might void it. Another road I'd rather not travel, and a hot topic to debate. Either way good luck.

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by Joel_MD
Why in the world would a transmission fail from using a non-OEM ATF that meets the manufacturer's specifications? For years I used Amsoil universal ATF in my Saab 9-5, not taking the advice of some ninnies on the Saab forum who said my Aisin transmission would fail if I didn't use the non-synthetic ATF that the manual specifies. The Amsoil ATF met the specific Aisin spec. That car has nearly 200k miles on it and the tranny still runs like a sewing machine.

How would a fluid meet the manufacturer's specifications if the spec is not available for licensing?

Valvoline and other blenders use an additive package from a vendor such as Infineum, Lubrizol, etc. The additive supplier has probably performed some amount of testing, but it is very unlikely that the fluid has been tested in every make/model it is being recommended for. The resources are very limited in the aftermarket.

It is very difficult to prove that a fluid caused a failure. It usually becomes a situation of:

1) OEM denies warranty due to aftermarket fluid (color is usually the dead giveaway). Owner lacks funds or the resources to dispute the claim.
2) The blender (Valvoline) takes a sample of the fluid when a failure occurs, they deem the fluid to be fine. OEM denies coverage due to the wrong fluid. A finger pointing match starts, and then the owner lacks funds (or even time) to hold someone responsible.

In other words, IMO, these companies (Valvoline) have very little to lose by putting out a universal product that claims to meet spec. Most of these products are being used in high mileage vehicles that are either out-of-warranty or a trans failure can be attributed to many other potential reasons.

Agreed.

If a universal fluid kills your transmission, no one is paying for it but you.

 

[Bailes1992]

But where are these transmissions failing?? I've not heard of one EVER after a universal ATF has been used. It's nothing but scaremongering.

I was right about that Aisin box in the other thread, the guy has switched back to WS fluid and he's still having issues.

 

[MCompact]

There are so many other ways to save money while running a V8 5er as well; For example you can use 87 octane fuel, Supertech oil, and fit Chinese Ditchfinder Supreme tires(but with no higher than an S speed rating).

 

[Bailes1992]

Originally Posted by MCompact
There are so many other ways to save money while running a V8 5er as well; For example you can use 87 octane fuel, Supertech oil, and fit Chinese Ditchfinder Supreme tires(but with no higher than an S speed rating).


And it would probably be absolutely fine. In the UK 99% of people only buy budget tyres, admittedly I always buy premium but it seems to cause most people no problems at all.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Bailes1992
But where are these transmissions failing?? I've not heard of one EVER after a universal ATF has been used. It's nothing but scaremongering.

I was right about that Aisin box in the other thread, the guy has switched back to WS fluid and he's still having issues.


It's not scaremongering, it's the difference between the official and non-official answer. Wouldn't you feel like a bell-end if you told a friend that a universal ATF was fine and his transmission started to act up? I agree that a universal ATF is probably "ok", but I would never recommend it to anyone. I mean ya you will save $100 per ATF change that you perform once every 60k miles.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Bailes1992
But where are these transmissions failing?? I've not heard of one EVER after a universal ATF has been used. It's nothing but scaremongering.

I was right about that Aisin box in the other thread, the guy has switched back to WS fluid and he's still having issues.

I think question before that one is: Why ZF does not use universal fluid as a first fill? Cheaper, easier etc.