anyone using this in their oil? we have has two cam shafts in a 67 427 and a cam go bad in a 63 caddy . very low miles on them. the engine builder claims soft metal in the cams. two comp. cam and one isky. we've been using mobil 1 15-50 with the ZDDP additive and still going flat. what's up ? this is a good known engine builder in the st.louis area. he buildt a roller engine that runs great. both of the above engines ran very good and strong.
ZDDP
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The ZDDP additive is likely not helping. It's hard to say how well it is blending into the oil that already has a fairly stout ZDDP add pack. How aggressive are these cams? Are the engines you had failures on flat tappet? Why not rollers if the builder has had good experience with them?
Nick1994
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Sounds like you need to find a new engine builder, whether everyone thinks he walks on water or not.
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Wonder if you need one of those "classic car" oils? Or maybe a racing oil. Zinc 2816 ppm in this one:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2189762
http://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/products/b...-SAE-25W-50.pdf
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2189762
http://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/products/b...-SAE-25W-50.pdf
In addition to zinc, new flat tappet cams have to be broken in properly. No idling at first, 2000-3000 rpm for 20 to 30 minutes.
Originally Posted By: spasm3
In addition to zinc, new flat tappet cams have to be broken in properly. No idling at first, 2000-3000 rpm for 20 to 30 minutes.
This. It's hard to take a new engine off idle immediately but it is an absolute necessity.
In addition to zinc, new flat tappet cams have to be broken in properly. No idling at first, 2000-3000 rpm for 20 to 30 minutes.
This. It's hard to take a new engine off idle immediately but it is an absolute necessity.
So the number one failure is that one lifter either stops spinning or spins slowly and scores the cam. Yes, Comp Cams has had a batch or two of soft core cams. Yes, they have mostly all been using off-shore lifters.
Add the two together and it's cam failure time ... Look very carefully at the lifter faces. If they are scored or cupped, it was lifter failure that took out the cams. Lifters are supposed to be very hard. Good ones can resist a lot. bad ones go easy and first.
So I either use Crower Cam-Saver or Howards Direct Lube lifters (both made by Johnson) for all my flat tappet builds. The solids can be had with EDM oiling holes. The hydraulics have bleed slots on the outside. But either style will supply extra oil to the lobes.
Many an Aussie engine builder has been re-using older OEM lifters that they re-grind the convex face on. Problem is there are few USA machine shops that will re-grind older OEM lifters. The Aussies do it because new USA OEM lifters were just too pricey. Then they found out they didn't need to, so they have an industry in place.
The issue is the face hardness. Modern replacement lifters are pretty much junk. Crower publishes the face hardness and radii specs for their lifters. Howards has a 5-year no question asked cam and lifter guarantee if you buy as a set and break them as they direct in the instructions. They both perform extremely well.
I feel comfortable mixing and matching Crower and say Crane cams. But, unless you've been doing this for a while, you have to be extremely careful. There are a lot of good engine shops that will build a killer engine and then depend on the cam mfg to supply the valve train. If comp, it often does not work out ... Sorry, but that's the way it is.
Rule one, use Crane Cam Lube (black paste). Nothing else during cam assembly.
Rule two, have the carb primed, timing set and the oiling system primed so that it's nearly instant fire. No extra cold cranking to get fuel or any of that kid stuff ...
Rule three, have the valve covers loose when you light the motor. Pull them quick and make sure all the push rods are spinning freely. If one is slow or start/stop, kill the motor and find out why immediately ...
Yeah I know running with oil flying is messy, but loosing an engine is messier ... As soon as you are sure everything is spinning right, shut the motor. Button down the valve covers, and re-fire. Go back up to 1,800~2,200 and vary slightly for 10 minutes at least. The longer the better, up to 1/2 hour.
Rule four, make sure all the oil system by-passes are blocked and inoperable. Use hydraulic system type filter w/o internal by-pass. Use oversize, easily available for both those motors. The reason for this is if any cam/lifter metal gets loose, it can not get past a filter unless tossed by the spinning crank. At least it will not get through the oil passages to embed in bearings. That will save you a lot of re-machine work if things go south ...
Even though there are soft cores out there in inventory, some cam companies never bought into the parts stream that ended up with these. Crane, Crower and Howards have been rock solid. Lunati has been pretty good. Comp has not ... GMPP has had some soft cams too ...
Add the two together and it's cam failure time ... Look very carefully at the lifter faces. If they are scored or cupped, it was lifter failure that took out the cams. Lifters are supposed to be very hard. Good ones can resist a lot. bad ones go easy and first.
So I either use Crower Cam-Saver or Howards Direct Lube lifters (both made by Johnson) for all my flat tappet builds. The solids can be had with EDM oiling holes. The hydraulics have bleed slots on the outside. But either style will supply extra oil to the lobes.
Many an Aussie engine builder has been re-using older OEM lifters that they re-grind the convex face on. Problem is there are few USA machine shops that will re-grind older OEM lifters. The Aussies do it because new USA OEM lifters were just too pricey. Then they found out they didn't need to, so they have an industry in place.
The issue is the face hardness. Modern replacement lifters are pretty much junk. Crower publishes the face hardness and radii specs for their lifters. Howards has a 5-year no question asked cam and lifter guarantee if you buy as a set and break them as they direct in the instructions. They both perform extremely well.
I feel comfortable mixing and matching Crower and say Crane cams. But, unless you've been doing this for a while, you have to be extremely careful. There are a lot of good engine shops that will build a killer engine and then depend on the cam mfg to supply the valve train. If comp, it often does not work out ... Sorry, but that's the way it is.
Rule one, use Crane Cam Lube (black paste). Nothing else during cam assembly.
Rule two, have the carb primed, timing set and the oiling system primed so that it's nearly instant fire. No extra cold cranking to get fuel or any of that kid stuff ...
Rule three, have the valve covers loose when you light the motor. Pull them quick and make sure all the push rods are spinning freely. If one is slow or start/stop, kill the motor and find out why immediately ...
Yeah I know running with oil flying is messy, but loosing an engine is messier ... As soon as you are sure everything is spinning right, shut the motor. Button down the valve covers, and re-fire. Go back up to 1,800~2,200 and vary slightly for 10 minutes at least. The longer the better, up to 1/2 hour.
Rule four, make sure all the oil system by-passes are blocked and inoperable. Use hydraulic system type filter w/o internal by-pass. Use oversize, easily available for both those motors. The reason for this is if any cam/lifter metal gets loose, it can not get past a filter unless tossed by the spinning crank. At least it will not get through the oil passages to embed in bearings. That will save you a lot of re-machine work if things go south ...
Even though there are soft cores out there in inventory, some cam companies never bought into the parts stream that ended up with these. Crane, Crower and Howards have been rock solid. Lunati has been pretty good. Comp has not ... GMPP has had some soft cams too ...
Oh, I forgot to mention that there are multiple forms of ZDDP and they do not all mix well in some oils. I'd never use over a 1/2 pint of any of the additives with a fill of good oil. Any more and it will be fighting the built-in add pak ...
Do not use any labeled "Break-In Oil" - they are less than stellar. Most HDEO's will beat them handily including Traveller and Rural King.
Valvoline VR-1 is the most often used oil in the BBC community that I know of. This is a slightly dated survey of other engine builders and hot rodders that I ran over at Chevelle's dot Com ... http://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-performance/831521-what-oil-do-you-use.html These guys are just voting for what they use. See what you think?
Do not use any labeled "Break-In Oil" - they are less than stellar. Most HDEO's will beat them handily including Traveller and Rural King.
Valvoline VR-1 is the most often used oil in the BBC community that I know of. This is a slightly dated survey of other engine builders and hot rodders that I ran over at Chevelle's dot Com ... http://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-performance/831521-what-oil-do-you-use.html These guys are just voting for what they use. See what you think?
If you are using a high Zddp oil , and breaking in the camshaft for 30 minutes at around 2500 to 3000 rpm and the cam still went flat , the camshaft and lifters might be the problem.
+1 i would suggest Valvoline VR1 or Brad Penn and ditch the zinc additive.
+1 i would suggest Valvoline VR1 or Brad Penn and ditch the zinc additive.
As well as ZDDP, you really need an oil formulated with Group I 'proper' mineral base oils. The almost total move in the US, to making oils with Group II, sulphur-free base stocks, in this instance, is possibly working against you.
Failing this, try and find a 15W50 which contains a lot of Moly as well as a lot of ZDDP.
Failing this, try and find a 15W50 which contains a lot of Moly as well as a lot of ZDDP.
Using an oil additive that the snakeoil sellers say will boost the Zinc AW layer is not a good idea, as it's very difficult to figure out how much to use without a few UOA's. Doing a few sums based on the quoted Zn contents of the additive does not work cos the absorbtion rate varies with oil type.
The Zn target you are aiming for in a VOA should not be more than 2000 ppm, because too much Zinc can result in a weird type of long term corrosion (I foget the type of pitting involved).
Alas more than about 1500 ppm of Zn in the oil is not good news for the CAT.
No major brand oil companies make Zinc additives at present, apart from one used as a break in additive that is not sold to the public (OEM factory use only), as boosting the Zn is not the best way of reducing cam wear.
Liqui Moly Ceratec is CAT friendly and far more effective at reducing bearing and even ring wear. It does need to be used every OCI (Half a can is enough if you are using a good major brand FS), although it will last for 30K km if you don't change the oil & filter.
PS: The oil you are using is thick enough and has enough Zinc. Another good one for cam issues is Mobil 1 10w60 EL (It's a high mileage oil).
The Zn target you are aiming for in a VOA should not be more than 2000 ppm, because too much Zinc can result in a weird type of long term corrosion (I foget the type of pitting involved).
Alas more than about 1500 ppm of Zn in the oil is not good news for the CAT.
No major brand oil companies make Zinc additives at present, apart from one used as a break in additive that is not sold to the public (OEM factory use only), as boosting the Zn is not the best way of reducing cam wear.
Liqui Moly Ceratec is CAT friendly and far more effective at reducing bearing and even ring wear. It does need to be used every OCI (Half a can is enough if you are using a good major brand FS), although it will last for 30K km if you don't change the oil & filter.
PS: The oil you are using is thick enough and has enough Zinc. Another good one for cam issues is Mobil 1 10w60 EL (It's a high mileage oil).
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It would be nice to see pics of the failures. Was it one, two or sixteen lobes? Sometimes, the load on the lobe is excessive, and no oil will prevent failure. This can happen if the valve springs are far too stiff, or approach coil-bind upon full lift. Or if the rocker arms hit the studs. Another mode of failure many dismiss, but it happens, is that the cam lobes and lifters are not properly aligned due to manufacturing defects. Either in the block, or with the cam itself.
Mobil 1 15W-50 is a robust oil and is fully capable of providing adequate protection. If your cams failed with this oil, it's not a fault of the oil. And it's not at all likely that a different oil choice will "fix" the problem.
Your engine builder might be 100% correct that the camshafts/lifters were too soft, especially with "reground" camshafts. Quality control issues of this sort have been a problem for as long as I have been alive.
Heck, I even remember a brand new small block Ford Crane camshaft where the lifter's edge was cutting into the lobe on each rotation. Poor design, poor grind. That one went back to the company, unused. Crane was good enough to work with us, understand the problem and design a lobe with similar performance but no interference.
Mobil 1 15W-50 is a robust oil and is fully capable of providing adequate protection. If your cams failed with this oil, it's not a fault of the oil. And it's not at all likely that a different oil choice will "fix" the problem.
Your engine builder might be 100% correct that the camshafts/lifters were too soft, especially with "reground" camshafts. Quality control issues of this sort have been a problem for as long as I have been alive.
Heck, I even remember a brand new small block Ford Crane camshaft where the lifter's edge was cutting into the lobe on each rotation. Poor design, poor grind. That one went back to the company, unused. Crane was good enough to work with us, understand the problem and design a lobe with similar performance but no interference.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
It would be nice to see pics of the failures. Was it one, two or sixteen lobes? Sometimes, the load on the lobe is excessive, and no oil will prevent failure. This can happen if the valve springs are far too stiff, or approach coil-bind upon full lift. Or if the rocker arms hit the studs. Another mode of failure many dismiss, but it happens, is that the cam lobes and lifters are not properly aligned due to manufacturing defects. Either in the block, or with the cam itself.
Mobil 1 15W-50 is a robust oil and is fully capable of providing adequate protection. If your cams failed with this oil, it's not a fault of the oil. And it's not at all likely that a different oil choice will "fix" the problem. +1 well said.
Your engine builder might be 100% correct that the camshafts/lifters were too soft, especially with "reground" camshafts. Quality control issues of this sort have been a problem for as long as I have been alive.
Heck, I even remember a brand new small block Ford Crane camshaft where the lifter's edge was cutting into the lobe on each rotation. Poor design, poor grind. That one went back to the company, unused. Crane was good enough to work with us, understand the problem and design a lobe with similar performance but no interference.
It would be nice to see pics of the failures. Was it one, two or sixteen lobes? Sometimes, the load on the lobe is excessive, and no oil will prevent failure. This can happen if the valve springs are far too stiff, or approach coil-bind upon full lift. Or if the rocker arms hit the studs. Another mode of failure many dismiss, but it happens, is that the cam lobes and lifters are not properly aligned due to manufacturing defects. Either in the block, or with the cam itself.
Mobil 1 15W-50 is a robust oil and is fully capable of providing adequate protection. If your cams failed with this oil, it's not a fault of the oil. And it's not at all likely that a different oil choice will "fix" the problem. +1 well said.
Your engine builder might be 100% correct that the camshafts/lifters were too soft, especially with "reground" camshafts. Quality control issues of this sort have been a problem for as long as I have been alive.
Heck, I even remember a brand new small block Ford Crane camshaft where the lifter's edge was cutting into the lobe on each rotation. Poor design, poor grind. That one went back to the company, unused. Crane was good enough to work with us, understand the problem and design a lobe with similar performance but no interference.
The old TDI issue was not caused by construction faults, it was caused by the use of cheaper (Softer in effect) steel parts. They were not too big an issue until the new CAT's were introduced and the Zinc based AW additive levels reduced to prolong their life. An even more significant Zn cut occured after DPF's were introduced.
VW should have changed to thicker oils, as that would have helped, but due to fuel economy concerns they did nothing, apart from fund some research into new AW additives that were OK in CAT and later in DPF terms, BUT although that resulted in the development of Ceratec, it turned out to be too expensive to include in their approved oils. Castrol uses Ti as an alternative to Zn, but it's not as effective as Ceratec in my opinion.
VW should have changed to thicker oils, as that would have helped, but due to fuel economy concerns they did nothing, apart from fund some research into new AW additives that were OK in CAT and later in DPF terms, BUT although that resulted in the development of Ceratec, it turned out to be too expensive to include in their approved oils. Castrol uses Ti as an alternative to Zn, but it's not as effective as Ceratec in my opinion.
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