ZDDP

[Taylor]

what's got the antimony in it?

I believe I would be worried about open pressures, but more so lifter load. And still they will only be OTN numbers. Equating the actual PSI (in the thousands) on the nose of each lobe takes a mathematician!

Break-in is what's important, and while I know no actual number, I feel comfortable with 1200 ppm on a Hi-Pro motor.

 

[[RT] ProjUltraZ]

Taylor, i trust you got the PM i sent last week

glen242 i found some studies on ZDDP - sciencedirect ZDDP

and although i can't read them (they charge) they seem interesting
Friction and wear of tribofilms formed b...ity engine oils

oil companies have been using zddp for decades

 

[fito]

Good luck. All I know is that many friends and myself have a lot of money tide up in our classic cars and would NEVER short our cars when it comes to the quality of oil/ZDDP.

With your vette, I would just use whatever oil and add a bottle of ZDDPlus. Quick and easy...

 

[m37charlie]

Reference SAE paper 2004-01-2986 "How much ZDP is enough", written by 2 GM engineers. They conclude that 750-1000ppm was enough to break in flat tappet engines in the 70s. 500 ppm is enough to protect broken-in engines. These figures are for phosphorus. They think 500-800 P is more than enough now for modern engines plus broken-in older engines.
That said, in another paper 2000-01-1993 "Performance of an advanced synthetic oil", Mobil outlines the development of CH-4 Delvac 1. They increased phosphorus from 1160 to 1350 to mitigate wear in the valvetrain and other wear due to increasing soot levels in the 1998 diesel CH-4 regime. BTW Delo 400 15W-40 CI4+ has 1360 P.
Now the CJ4s seem to be around 1200.
Remember that levels over 2000 ppm (zinc?) can cause catastrophic cam lobe wear, and ZDDPlus is potent. Even in my 30 qt pan one bottle will increase Zn 280 and P 210. In a 5 qt pan we're talking Zn going up 1750 and P 1256. I wouldn't use over half a bottle in a 5 qt pan even with an anemic 500 ppm oil.

Charlie

 

[fito]

I totally agree with Charlie on only using half a bottle of ZDDPLUS.

Someone at the Boss forum tested oil with different amounts of ZDDPLUS and mentioned that half a bottle would be enough for any 700-800PPM oil. It raised it up to like 1500-1700PPM.

 

[m37charlie]

If one buys into the ZDDPlus idea I think I'd also use only half a bottle on a typical pickup diesel with 15 qt pan using CJ4 oil.
At least the stuff has only one ingredient, that's already in the oil (more or less, the variable is the length of the alkyl chains). I totally disagree with stuff like Lucas oil stabilizer, which is essentially residual oil with a viscosity of 110 @ 100 C. (!!!!!) Read its' MSDS and product data if curious. Be careful with the Lucas brake-in additive, I'd only use ~ 2 oz. in a 5qt pan to raise Zn/P ~ 600ppm
Although all the engine mfgs do not recommend oil additives, they do allow mixing oil. One could use 1 qt of racing oil with ~2500 ppm P or Zn and accomplish the same thing as 1/2 bottle of ZDDPlus, except you'd be throwing in all sorts of other unknown additives as well.

Charlie

 

[glen242]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Reference SAE paper 2004-01-2986 "How much ZDP is enough", written by 2 GM engineers. They conclude that 750-1000ppm was enough to break in flat tappet engines in the 70s. 500 ppm is enough to protect broken-in engines. These figures are for phosphorus. They think 500-800 P is more than enough now for modern engines plus broken-in older engines.
That said, in another paper 2000-01-1993 "Performance of an advanced synthetic oil", Mobil outlines the development of CH-4 Delvac 1. They increased phosphorus from 1160 to 1350 to mitigate wear in the valvetrain and other wear due to increasing soot levels in the 1998 diesel CH-4 regime. BTW Delo 400 15W-40 CI4+ has 1360 P.
Now the CJ4s seem to be around 1200.
Remember that levels over 2000 ppm (zinc?) can cause catastrophic cam lobe wear, and ZDDPlus is potent. Even in my 30 qt pan one bottle will increase Zn 280 and P 210. In a 5 qt pan we're talking Zn going up 1750 and P 1256. I wouldn't use over half a bottle in a 5 qt pan even with an anemic 500 ppm oil.

Charlie


SO I was correct. Valvoline VR1 with 0.14/0.13 ZDDP is fine with out adding 'mouse milk'.

With evidence, such as these SAE papers, what is the reason for using the ZDDP additives, except when your regular oil is deficient in ZDDP? There is a lot of oil out there with over 0.100/0.100 ZDDP.

My opinion is, use the correct oil and forget about the 'mouse milk' that makes the additive suppliers rich.

m37charlie, thanks for posting this. A lot of info I have received is direct from the 'mouse milk' manufacturers and distributors. Are they hyping their own products?

You, the consumer, should decide based upon valid independent tests.

 

[Mitch Alsup]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Reference SAE paper 2004-01-2986 "How much ZDP is enough", written by 2 GM engineers. They conclude that 750-1000ppm was enough to break in flat tappet engines in the 70s. 500 ppm is enough to protect broken-in engines. These figures are for phosphorus. They think 500-800 P is more than enough now for modern engines plus broken-in older engines.


Given that ZDDP is depleated as it provides the anti-wear property, how much ZDDP would one have to start with to finish off with 500 PPM of ZDDP at 7000 miles?

 

[m37charlie]

No idea, but a lot of UOAs on diesels still show Zn>1100. My little issue is that some diesel oils contain up to 1490 ppm Zn and 1360 ppm P; some others, especially newer ones only 1200/1100.
Re Zn getting "used up" especially in a broken-in engine: where does it go? Does it coat surfaces? Aren't they already coated from the last oil change? It can't evaporate, a little can go out the exhaust as ash, but only in proportion to burned oil. The UOAs vs. VOAs seem to bear out it doesn't really get "used up".

Charlie

 

[fito]

Diesel oil is fine for diesel engines but it has to much detergent for most gas engines. I also do not like using a full synthetic oil in my classic/muscle cars. I am trying using high mileage semi syn Maxlife and will see how it works. I will also add some ZDDPLUS.

 

[[RT] ProjUltraZ]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Zn getting "used up" especially in a broken-in engine: where does it go? Does it coat surfaces? Aren't they already coated from the last oil change?


the coating needs to be replenished and it can volatilize some under high temp and end up in the PCV and back into the intake, also like you said oil burners, but looking at UOAs there doesn't seem to be much loss during OCI

as far as price, my 16 oz bottles of Schaeffers 132 were $5 each and i can use them 4 times since i'm only using 4oz, same w/ Redline break in additive at $12.99

 

[Mitch Alsup]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Re Zn getting "used up" especially in a broken-in engine: where does it go? Does it coat surfaces? Aren't they already coated from the last oil change? It can't evaporate, a little can go out the exhaust as ash, but only in proportion to burned oil. The UOAs vs. VOAs seem to bear out it doesn't really get "used up".


Let's expand this from normal driving around town and interstate driving--to high performance driving on race track where the engine is at full song (high RPMs), the oil is hot (285dF), as is the rest of the drive train. Does the ZDDP get depleted? Do the other additives get depleted?

 

[Colt45ws]

Originally Posted By: fito
Diesel oil is fine for diesel engines but it has to much detergent for most gas engines. I also do not like using a full synthetic oil in my classic/muscle cars. I am trying using high mileage semi syn Maxlife and will see how it works. I will also add some ZDDPLUS.

What? Too much detergent? I might go along with that if we are talking about a HD 24+ TBN used in big marine engines, but On-road truck oil? Not really. That stuff is designed for multiuse in both gas and diesel.

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: Onmo'Eegusee
Originally Posted By: fito
Diesel oil is fine for diesel engines but it has to much detergent for most gas engines. I also do not like using a full synthetic oil in my classic/muscle cars. I am trying using high mileage semi syn Maxlife and will see how it works. I will also add some ZDDPLUS.

What? Too much detergent? I might go along with that if we are talking about a HD 24+ TBN used in big marine engines, but On-road truck oil? Not really. That stuff is designed for multiuse in both gas and diesel.


That is more specifically true in North America than Europe. Most diesel oils in Europe don't even have a B3 or B4 rating (for car/SUV diesels), let alone an A rating (for gasoline). And I think we may see a divergence here as diesel emission related requirements get more picky.

Charlie