ZDDP

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I went to the ZDDP forum on 8-6-09 amd asked this, what I think is a simple question, "What, exactly, is an acceptable level of ZDDP for a SBC with a flat tappet cam?" No reply as of yet. Makes me wonder!
 
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first we need to know what zinc/phos was in the oils when your engine was made, or the 70s and 80s. i have no idea we know that modern oils are at 800/700 and could be insufficient, other oils like VR1 and Redline have 1400/1200 and other additives that may help, like moly
 
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1200 ppm of zinc is almost over kill for an oil being used in a broken in engine. I own numerous classic cars and belong to many classic car forums and most of us believe that anything over 1000 ppm of zinc is all you need. Again, 1200 ppm of zinc is almost over kill but fine to use.
 
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glen242

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 Originally Posted By: fito
1200 ppm of zinc is almost over kill for an oil being used in a broken in engine. I own numerous classic cars and belong to many classic car forums and most of us believe that anything over 1000 ppm of zinc is all you need. Again, 1200 ppm of zinc is almost over kill but fine to use.
Then why are people, who I thought knew better, saying to use ZDDP Plus at every oil change? I agree with what you are saying, but I am just wondering why, so many "experts" are spouting the same [censored], i.e. you have to add a ZDDP additive because you cannot get enough ZDDP with ANY oil. Dummies or shills?
 
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There are studies that have shown increasing in wear below 1200ppm, but you have to look at the test. I don't recall the particulars, but I seem to recall it not being a bonafide blueprint/run/tear down/measure test. Sorta like how the 4ball is criticized.
 
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Why does GM warranty my new Goodwrench 350 flat tappet engine for 36 months or 100,000 miles if the current oils are "deficient" in ZDDP?
 
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My son has a 350 cu.in. crate engine in his Jeep Cj-7. We have been seeing metal on the Magnetic drain plug. That is what started the search on SM oils. He changed the oil yesterday and sent a sample to Blackstone. I will post the results. There is under 15000 miles on the engine and he changes the oil every 1500 to 2000 miles. I will have specific numbers with the results when they come in.
 
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 Originally Posted By: glen242
 Originally Posted By: fito
1200 ppm of zinc is almost over kill for an oil being used in a broken in engine. I own numerous classic cars and belong to many classic car forums and most of us believe that anything over 1000 ppm of zinc is all you need. Again, 1200 ppm of zinc is almost over kill but fine to use.
Then why are people, who I thought knew better, saying to use ZDDP Plus at every oil change? I agree with what you are saying, but I am just wondering why, so many "experts" are spouting the same [censored], i.e. you have to add a ZDDP additive because you cannot get enough ZDDP with ANY oil. Dummies or shills?
You have to add ZDDP if the zinc is under 1000 PPM. Again, I am talking about engines that have been in use and not new engine breakin... If you do not add zinc you can always add Shaeffers #132 Moly additive. It is a really good additive and runs under $5 a pint. I also think Hughes engine additive is the same product but is a little more expensive. I have a few Shelby friends that run it in their classics.
 
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I am thinking about trying Maxlife semi 10W40 in one of my older muscle cars. I'll also add a pint of Schaeffer's #132 or Hughes moly oil additive.
 
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Check out... Delo® 400 LE SAE 10W-30 © 2008 Chevron Products Company. San Ramon, CA. All rights reserved. SAE Grade 10W-30 Product Number 222210 MSDS Number 23004 API Gravity 30.6 Viscosity, Kinematic cSt at 40°C cSt at 100°C 80/12.0 Viscosity, Cold Crank, C/Poise -25/64 Viscosity Index 145 Flash Point, °C(°F) 204 (399) Pour Point, °C(°F) -30 (-22) Sulfated Ash, wt % 1.0 Base Number, ASTM D 2896 8.7 Phosphorus, wt % 0.11 Zinc, wt % 0.12
 
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glen242

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Everyone here is on the internet! Why not go to the oil manufacturers web site and LOOK at the specs? There seem to be a lot of oils out there with ZDDP numbers higher than 0.01/0.10. My questions have been: How much is sufficient for a flat tappet cam? At what point does the open pressure on the tappets excessive cause cam wear? At what point does too much ZDDP do harm? I am using Valvoline VR-1 oil, 0.14/0.13 ZDDP on my flat tappet 'vette with a CC XE274H cam and matched valve springs. Several on BITOG have said this is fine for my engine. Yet others say I should be adding "mouse milk" to raise the ZDDP level. When I ask for proof, I get the "mouse milk" producers ad that says I should dump 4-16oz. of their product into my crankcase. I have not seen any scientific postings, and I do mean scientific postings from the API or a recognized university, regarding what an acceptable level of ZDDP is for a flat tappet cam. I posted on the ZDDP-Plus web site about 3 weeks ago, asking this question. NO REPLY. I don't want to break anyones rice bowl who is selling/shilling for any product, I just want to know scientific facts! Put in what you think is best for your engine, but me, I need proof before I spend my money.
 
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maybe Bluestream had it right in the 3rd post of this thread, but you've also seen the posts that say 2,000 ppm can create spalling or corrosion on metals? if bitog hasn't been able to produce links to studies on it, i would guess they don't exist (yet)
 
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Any info-study is usually by a producer of the product. Not that it's invalid ..just not independent. All of your SAE papers have an en vogue agenda to them. If they didn't produce the results that they're reporting, they don't get published. I have yet to see a failed SAE paper referenced (no, that's not all that serious a statement other than to make a point). Do any of you think the study by GM fluid engineers ..that showed that OEM GM Dex VI was superior in performance to other multi-vehicle formulas had shown otherwise ..that you ever would have seen it hit the light of day? I hope you don't believe that. So, we're left with figuring that any "proof" was more or less constructed to achieve that goal. That being said, the only people that should have to worry are those who use over 220lbf max springs. That's about the common flat tappet cam'd engine's spring rating. If you've got 200lbf on the seats, I'd be dosing that oil with zddp. You can't run a race car (as easy as it is to build one out of a catalog today) and expect OEM 150k mile + reliability.
 

glen242

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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Any info-study is usually by a producer of the product. Not that it's invalid ..just not independent. All of your SAE papers have an en vogue agenda to them. If they didn't produce the results that they're reporting, they don't get published. I have yet to see a failed SAE paper referenced (no, that's not all that serious a statement other than to make a point). Do any of you think the study by GM fluid engineers ..that showed that OEM GM Dex VI was superior in performance to other multi-vehicle formulas had shown otherwise ..that you ever would have seen it hit the light of day? I hope you don't believe that. So, we're left with figuring that any "proof" was more or less constructed to achieve that goal. That being said, the only people that should have to worry are those who use over 220lbf max springs. That's about the common flat tappet cam'd engine's spring rating. If you've got 200lbf on the seats, I'd be dosing that oil with zddp. You can't run a race car (as easy as it is to build one out of a catalog today) and expect OEM 150k mile + reliability.
When you say " If you've got 200lbf on the seats, I'd be dosing that oil with zddp." Do you mean installed height (in my case 1.700) or at fully open height of 1.200. Well let's see. My valve springs are 110# at installed height of 1.700 and 290# at 1.200. So, is the 290# open pressure what you are refering to? The lifter is on the cam with open or closed valves, it is just how much pressure is being put on the cam by the compressed and then somewhat relaxed valve springs as the engine runs. I have been asking numerous times, how much ZDDP should I be running? "Dosing" is not a number! No one, so far except for a "mouse milk" seller, has given me a number. All I am asking for is factual information on how much ZDDP I should be running, PPM or %, to keep my engine healthy. It also seems to me, that the seller or shill for the "mouse milk" has a financial stake in the results. That was why I asked for independent results. Which SAE papers? I asked for proof from the API, different from the SAE, or a recognized university.
 
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The ZDDP doesn't exist in isolation within the oil. It's part of a complete package of friction modifiers etc. What ever amount is in the oil when it leaves the refinery is the "right amount". If you think you know more than the chemists at Exxon/Ashland etc, then you can certainly add aftermarket oil additives. Lucas makes one "Engine Break-In Oil Additive - TB Zinc Plus" http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display...B%20Zinc%20Plus
 
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Originally Posted By: glen242
Which SAE papers? I asked for proof from the API, different from the SAE, or a recognized university.
are you related to moribund? just kidding Beer2 Gary, he was asking for studies or papers on it. whether it was never done or just not published is the same result for glen242, but i'll keep it in mind 1400 should be plenty. from what i've seen here, the highest historical zinc/phos in older oil specs was 1400-1500 that's good enough for me. i'm about to embark on an experiment w/ PP 5W-30, 4 oz Schaeffers 132, and 4 oz Redline break in additive. shooting for 1400/1200 zinc/phos and the magic esters of 132 (and antimony) roller LT1 4th gen camaro autox no cats. 6sp and 13 lb flywheel make for fast revs, all 1st gear 30-40 sec runs WOT-half throttle-WOT all the way
 
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