zddp maxx with Castrol TWS?

[Brit33]

Also what's the difference between the zddp plus and zddp maxx?

And maybe just half a bottle of zddp to 4 litres of Castrol TWS (~990 ppm)?

 

[Brit33]

Done - 3 bottles of MAXX bought!

 

[Lead Shoes]

So what did you decide upon for the 50 to 60 wt oil?

I would think you will be fine running the Valvoline 20w50 conventional you can get with a bottle of MAXX, it should raise the zinc level a lot and save you some money over the TWS.

Any chance we can get a pic of the oil isle you have a choice from, I have yet to see a picture of an oil shelf from that neck of the woods.

 

[Brit33]

Originally Posted By: Brenden
So what did you decide upon for the 50 to 60 wt oil?

I would think you will be fine running the Valvoline 20w50 conventional you can get with a bottle of MAXX, it should raise the zinc level a lot and save you some money over the TWS.

Any chance we can get a pic of the oil isle you have a choice from, I have yet to see a picture of an oil shelf from that neck of the woods.


There are no oil aisle's as in walmart etc.
They sell the oil in small corner shops downtown, all within a few blocks of each other. There is a zone where all the old workshops, car spare parts shops are.
each one with its specialization. 1 shop to repair/rebuild oil pumps, 1 for gaskets, 1 for rebuilding carbs, 1 for oils etc etc.
Quite unique.

I'd rather not go back to mineral oil.
Just rebuilt my engine and now has fully synthetic in it.
20w is also a bit thick in winter on start ups. (30-40 F nighttime temps)
Needed a 5w or 10w.

regards

 

[dailydriver]

You've stated that you can get Motul 300V.

If so, and you don't mind paying the premium for it, that has BOATLOADS of ZDDP, moly, etc. in it (besides the great multi-ester basestock), so you should not even need the ZDDP Maxx if you use this oil.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Brit33
3 bottles of MAXX with shipping is only 34 bucks.
1 oil change a year plus 1 bottle = just over 11 bucks a year for the additive.


Well, that seems to be the path of least resistance, and should work splendidly.

 

[Brit33]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
You've stated that you can get Motul 300V.

If so, and you don't mind paying the premium for it, that has BOATLOADS of ZDDP, moly, etc. in it (besides the great multi-ester basestock), so you should not even need the ZDDP Maxx if you use this oil.

Can you give some data for the 300v?

I believe it only has a tad more than TWS. Nothing compared with the older flat tappet oils.
My previous tappets were destroyed after I started using 300v from Motul semi. Maybe just a coincidence with other issues.

Anyway the MAXX has been dispatched.
I wish Motul had a 5w50 or 10w60.

 

[Brit33]

Found this on the web (bold is the zddp level - not that much)
Nothing near the 1400-1600 level I want.


Motul 300V Competition 15w50 1139 1130 20 2410 SH 05/05 SYN Blackstone

 

[d00df00d]

I still don't get why you are so focused on an arbitrary ZDDP level.

You should be looking at the apparent capabilities of the total formulation. It's entirely possible that one oil with 800 ppm could be fine whereas another with 1600 ppm could be terrible. Moreover, while throwing in an additive might help you feel good about ZDDP levels, it might also mess up the chemistry of the oil and leave you with a sub-optimal result.

Besides, I see no reason to doubt that either Castrol TWS or any Motul 300V formulation (in the correct grade) would provide all the protection you need. We're not talking about relabeled corn oil here. These are among the toughest, most highly developed, and most thoroughly tested products available.

 

[Brit33]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I still don't get why you are so focused on an arbitrary ZDDP level.

You should be looking at the apparent capabilities of the total formulation. It's entirely possible that one oil with 800 ppm could be fine whereas another with 1600 ppm could be terrible. Moreover, while throwing in an additive might help you feel good about ZDDP levels, it might also mess up the chemistry of the oil and leave you with a sub-optimal result.

Besides, I see no reason to doubt that either Castrol TWS or any Motul 300V formulation (in the correct grade) would provide all the protection you need. We're not talking about relabeled corn oil here. These are among the toughest, most highly developed, and most thoroughly tested products available.


But also re-designed/formulated to prevent damage to cat converters and reduce emissions. Modern engines do not have the old style flat tappets.

Zinc is Zinc and the companies choose to add a certain amount.
Correct me if I'm wrong but what harm could adding some more zddp to the oil?
There has been a lot of discussion around these designs and the modern oil companies are not interested.

The lobe contact with the flat tappet in these old engines is extreme and zddp has always been essential.

 

[Brit33]

Originally Posted By: Brit33
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I still don't get why you are so focused on an arbitrary ZDDP level.

You should be looking at the apparent capabilities of the total formulation. It's entirely possible that one oil with 800 ppm could be fine whereas another with 1600 ppm could be terrible. Moreover, while throwing in an additive might help you feel good about ZDDP levels, it might also mess up the chemistry of the oil and leave you with a sub-optimal result.

Besides, I see no reason to doubt that either Castrol TWS or any Motul 300V formulation (in the correct grade) would provide all the protection you need. We're not talking about relabeled corn oil here. These are among the toughest, most highly developed, and most thoroughly tested products available.


But also re-designed/formulated to prevent damage to cat converters and reduce emissions. Modern engines do not have the old style flat tappets.

Zinc is Zinc and the companies choose to add a certain amount.
Correct me if I'm wrong but what harm could adding some more zddp to the oil?
There has been a lot of discussion around these designs and the modern oil companies are not interested.

The lobe contact with the flat tappet in these old engines is extreme and zddp has always been essential.


Also this is the category for additives so if you don't believe in adding additives why join in the discussions here?
No offense intended please. Just curious with all due respect.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Brit33
I wish Motul had a 5w50 or 10w60


There IS a 20W-60 300V being released by August in their new 'Ester Core' lineup.

I have NO idea what the ZDDP, boron, and moly levels are going to be in this though.

 

[Brit33]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Brit33
I wish Motul had a 5w50 or 10w60


There IS a 20W-60 300V being released by August in their new 'Ester Core' lineup.

I have NO idea what the ZDDP, boron, and moly levels are going to be in this though.


Just finished using the older version of 20w/60 300v.
Great performance in our hot summers in chaotic traffic. Engine so quiet.
But as winter approached it's a very thick oil on cold start ups. Had to take it out for winter.

I haven't been successful in finding out real figures for zddp levels for 300v.
I can't assume they have a good level without seeing data sheets.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Brit33
But also re-designed/formulated to prevent damage to cat converters and reduce emissions. Modern engines do not have the old style flat tappets.

Motul 300V is a race oil. I doubt catalytic converter life was a high priority in its formulation.

TWS is for modern street cars, but it's specific to high-revving BMW M engines that barely meet emissions regs. Plus, the fact that it's so thick helps prevent ZDDP from escaping and poisoning the cats.

Also, not all ZDDP is the same. Newer types stay in the oil better, allowing them to protect better and be less poisonous to cats.


Originally Posted By: Brit33
Correct me if I'm wrong but what harm could adding some more zddp to the oil?

ZDDP could compete with other additives at the surface; too much could cause excess corrosion. Modern high-end formulations are finely balanced to manage these effects and additives can upset the balance.


Originally Posted By: Brit33
The lobe contact with the flat tappet in these old engines is extreme and zddp has always been essential.

What's the evidence that high levels (say >1000 ppm) continues to be essential with a modern high-end oil formulation?


Originally Posted By: Brit33
Also this is the category for additives so if you don't believe in adding additives why join in the discussions here?

Two reasons:

1. This topic showed up in the Recent Topics list and caught my eye.

2. I don't "not believe in adding additives." I just think it should be done with caution, based on some clearly articulated and well-founded expectations.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Brit33
I haven't been successful in finding out real figures for zddp levels for 300v.
I can't assume they have a good level without seeing data sheets.


I think the ZDDP additive you're looking at will work. I'm not a fan of additives, but it's obvious that you have a different application that isn't well served by an off the shelf, normal grade PCMO. I gripe about our oil choices up here, but at least I could get a 50 grade multigrade racing/street oil if I wanted to. You, unfortunately, don't have that option.

For the old F-150 rebuild, I just used Comp Cams break in additive with 10w30 QS. I can use Defy or HDEO down the road. Obviously, those grades aren't what you want for your application, so it complicates matters.

 

[Brit33]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Brit33
I haven't been successful in finding out real figures for zddp levels for 300v.
I can't assume they have a good level without seeing data sheets.


I think the ZDDP additive you're looking at will work. I'm not a fan of additives, but it's obvious that you have a different application that isn't well served by an off the shelf, normal grade PCMO. I gripe about our oil choices up here, but at least I could get a 50 grade multigrade racing/street oil if I wanted to. You, unfortunately, don't have that option.

For the old F-150 rebuild, I just used Comp Cams break in additive with 10w30 QS. I can use Defy or HDEO down the road. Obviously, those grades aren't what you want for your application, so it complicates matters.


Good to hear Garak.


Yes we either have 40 or 60 viscosity oils. If you want a 50 it's either mineral or semi. 40 is too thin for my engine and below factory specs.

I wrote to Castrol to see what they say.
Many of the boxers with flat tappets come into workshops with issues here in Uruguay. They are European boxers but been filled with these American oils with low zddp content. I'll continue doing some research before I touch my tws oil though.

 

[Philippe_Boileau]

Couple of points:

1- I doubt you need the 5W winter grade most of the year. You would be better off with a 20W60 or a 25W60 as these contain less viscosity modifiers and give better performance.

2- Good diesel oils will have 1.7% of ZDDP (API CJ-4 Heavy Duty). They are perfect for gasoline engine use (API SM or SN). They will also contain extra overbased calcium sulfonate which will reduce wear further and give protection against shock and vibration.

3- You can and should buy a ZDDP supplement if you can't find a good diesel oil with the grade you need. Just google it and you'll find a couple of stores who sell the pure additive.

Hope this helps.

 

[Brit33]

Originally Posted By: Philippe_Boileau
Couple of points:

1- I doubt you need the 5W winter grade most of the year. You would be better off with a 20W60 or a 25W60 as these contain less viscosity modifiers and give better performance.

2- Good diesel oils will have 1.7% of ZDDP (API CJ-4 Heavy Duty). They are perfect for gasoline engine use (API SM or SN). They will also contain extra overbased calcium sulfonate which will reduce wear further and give protection against shock and vibration.

3- You can and should buy a ZDDP supplement if you can't find a good diesel oil with the grade you need. Just google it and you'll find a couple of stores who sell the pure additive.

Hope this helps.



Thanks mate.
I actually found the Motul 20w/60 was so thick at 5 degrees C on cold start ups. Too much - it really struggled. It has a HTHS of 7.3 or something.

Great in the summer though. Smooth as silk.
But they ran out here!

In the meantime I am in the middle of many discussions between Castrol and the ZDDP companies. I will update you once concluded.

Regards

 

[Brit33]

The most recent repsonse from ZddPlus:

" SO for 4 liters, and using 900ppm phosphorus oil it would take 1 ounce of ZDDPlus™ to bump the sump ZDDP level to the Alfa’s API SG (1200ppm) recommendation.



Regarding the issue of whether the additive package is compatible with ZDDP, it already is: because ZDDP is already in the oil, and you are only changing the amount by 20%. I have heard people outside of the industry theorize about some critical “balance” which can be upset, but there are several realities which disprove this speculation:



1) The level of both ZDDP and detergent declines from the first time you start the engine after the oil change. If the exact level of available chemical was critical, the oil should then stop protecting the engine soon after the change…it does not.

2) The additive package formulators (not the oil companies, the companies that the oil companies buy the additive packages from) publish dosing charts showing how to mix and match the different packages to achieve different results. If the additive manufacturers encourage custom formulations from the stock additives, then…

3) In order to be type approved, every oil must be able to be mixed with any other type approved oil with no dire consequence. Have you ever heard of problems with someone merely mixing two oil types? We have not seen any documented cases of this ever happening. Talk a bout a custom formulation!



Thank you for your continued interest in ZDDPlus™.

Howard Hoyt
Dir. of Engineering
AMI, LLC

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Brit33
I actually found the Motul 20w/60 was so thick at 5 degrees C on cold start ups. Too much - it really struggled. It has a HTHS of 7.3 or something.


Wow, even at 41*F it was that bad?!

If it weren't for the cost, not being available to you, and lack of detergents, Mobil 1 Racing 0w50 sounds like it has your name written all over it!!