ZDDP Levels?

[FlyNavyP3]

Originally Posted By: burla
Multiple guys taking part in this testing over 5 years, all you should have said was wow that is amazing, you really hit on something. Instead you "poke holes" but not discredit? If the results were different, that would be one thing, but the results are the results. Time in and time out, another guy with a knocking hemi goes quiet just by changing oil. Probably a better % then actually changing lifters, that's right other guys swapped lifters and still had the knock. I'm a little disheartened Redline moly levels have been dropping, I would like to see them back at 880ppm instead of the 550ppm we seam to be at now, but we have had equal success with both, so as of now it is a non issue, but who knows what the future holds for the formulation.


You're obviously not familiar with the concept of peer review.

What say you about the millions of Hemi engines that live long and uneventful life without the use of Redline oil?

How do you explain the mechanical failure exhibited by the engines that lost cam/lifters? Was that just the oil and not a component induced failure? Have any of the failed camshafts had any post failure analysis performed on them?

You're welcome to your own observations and beliefs. We welcome open discussion here. I welcome your opinions and observations. What I don't appreciate is your flaming me when I've been nothing but respectful and professional.

You've yet to answer any of my questions and instead resort to the internet equivalent of jumping up and down and reciting your original statement.

 

[burla]

^^ I yield last word, peace. ^^

 

[CC1981]

Just throwing my experience with Redline oil curing my Hemi tick in here as well.

I was told by my dealer 3 times that it's normal Hemi noise. Well "normal Hemi noise" made it so I had to shut my truck off to order at a drive through. I ran PP 5w20 once and ever since then I have had this "normal Hemi noise". Not blaming PP by any means it's a great oil and I had used it in the past but that what happened.

I then experimented with many different oils. I tried Amsoil SS 5w20&5w30, Amsoil OE 5w20, PUP 5w30/0w40 mix, PYB 5w20, and none of them quieted the Hemi in my Ram to where it was before running PP.

After seeing the success guys were having with Redline oil, Burla included, I decided to try Redline 5w20. It was a huge reduction in noise and it idled so smooth. I then tried Redline 0w30 and it further quieted my Hemi. I'm currently running Redline 5w30 and any noise I had heard is barely noticeable unless you get right up next to the block.

That's not speculation or internet ramblings, that's cold hard results. My truck will get Redline until the day I sell it. My .02.

 

[burla]

Glad to hear that your "normal" hemi noise is gone, lol. Maybe now that you aren't ticking it is abnormal?

Not to put you on the spot, but why did you make all of the oil choices? You must have thought some of them had a chance at fixing a knocking condition? Obviously that would fly in the face of anyone who tools on engines that an oil can fix a mechanical issue.

 

[CC1981]

Originally Posted By: burla
Glad to hear that your "normal" hemi noise is gone, lol. Maybe now that you aren't ticking it is abnormal?

Not to put you on the spot, but why did you make all of the oil choices? You must have thought some of them had a chance at fixing a knocking condition? Obviously that would fly in the face of anyone who tools on engines that an oil can fix a mechanical issue.


Well I had read this great thread on another forum about how the high moly and ester based Redline had cured a bunch of people's Hemi tick. I researched what oils have a good amount of moly and tried to find a cheaper alternative. Unfortunately none worked like Redline did. PUP came close but the ticking eventually came back.

Honestly I never believed a simple oil change would work but I figured it was worth a shot. Well it did work and my Hemi is super quiet and smooth now.

 

[burla]

So you mean 0w40 PUP and that is the only PUP that has over 200ppm moly, yes that was rhetorical. Looks like you tried 5 oils instead of just doing what the rest of us where doing over there in the same boat. And if anyone feels so motivated you can see h395's (CC1981) years long testing and battle with hemi knock. We had high hopes there would be other options then spending redline money to solve this issue. I think all of us wouldn't mind if we still could find an oil with a similar shot at getting rid of the lifter knock. It certainly isn't about Redline, just finding options as even changing out lifters has not been effective. We have also tried many moly additives, it hasn't worked. I am hoping molygen becomes more available here as it is oil soluble moly and maybe will give similar results. The only other oil soluble moly lubeguard has been ineffective, and not much luck with the powdered in suspension moly'.

 

[burla]

I don't know if this study has been collected here at Bob's or not, but some of our gathering info we came across this, an amazing test of how zinc works. Physics.org article.

Mysteries behind ZDDP solved

Researchers address long-standing mysteries behind anti-wear motor oil additive

 

[burla]

I had an English teacher once ask me, if you choose to believe in God what is the downside. If you die and there is no God, did you live an unfulfilled life? Well this is the same thing, if you had Hemi tick what do you have to loose by running Redline? Even if it doesn't fix your tick, which I will be the first person to admit happens, you still have really good oil for your oci. If this post happens to help anyone with a hemi tick fix their tick, do me a favor and PM me. And if it doesn't help you and feel like letting me know, please pm me as well. I know a bunch of guys who just are trying to help folks, including the OP Syn.

 

[PimTac]

Then again, Redline does not meet most specs officially since they don't pay the fees for testing. If anyone needed warranty service on those Fiat motors, would they deny it?

 

[burla]

How many times has a dealer denied someone for running Redline? Even once? For the longest time only PUP satisfied the spec for the 6.4, and some dealers themselves used M1, would they deny coverage because m1 didn't meet the spec for the 6.4? Dealers get hammered under magnuson moss violations, they have to prove something an owner did caused the damage. This is why whenever someone is denied and they bother to get a lawyer, the dealer settles out of court. I won 13 grand because Chevy refused to fix a squeeky bolt under warranty. Turns out there was a tsb and I let them try to fix it 4 times, and then they refused to repair it after that say'n they gave it their best shot. They were so afraid of seeing a Judge their first offer was 10k, I decided to be to them like they were to me, unreasonable, and so they bumped it up to 13k, and I for to keep the truck. People need to fight instead of taking [censored] off the dealer. If a dealer deny's coverage or even asks you for records you don't need to provide, tell them to shut their pie hole or you will go to court.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
Then again, Redline does not meet most specs officially since they don't pay the fees for testing. If anyone needed warranty service on those Fiat motors, would they deny it?


There is a difference from not paying for the donut and not meeting the spec.

 

[burla]

Case number 3, since 16 out of 20 ticks ended wouldn't be enough, or the last 6 random in a row cam fails with zero moly oils, what were the actions of Ram/Penzoil when they had to make a Hemi specific oil??? We started our testing 2012/13, but the 6.4 was released in 2014. The engineers at Ram could make whatever formula they wanted for the 6.4, something they couldn't do for the 5.7, and they choose a high detergent oil that runs thin for weight, and most importantly has 260ppm moly, more then 99% of the oils out there. What did they know? h395 did a voa, feel free to post it if your still watching. So instead of fighting information, try letting some in.

 

[VNTS]

What other oils have high moly which you researched?

I have a 5.7 in a WK2 with 25k miles with no tick, but have run mostly xw-30 synthetic oils,

Also have a 6.4 in my SRT challenger, but only have less than 1000 miles, nice and quiet.

Have scene a few wiped out hemi cams at local dodge store from roller followers bearings seizing, also in high mileage cop chargers, probably from too much idling.

 

[PimTac]

Look, there is no doubt that Phillips 66 makes a good oil. Redline has alway had a good reputation as well. This thread though has become a Redline infomercial. Glad it has worked out for you all.

 

[SilverFusion2010]

Originally Posted By: VNTS
What other oils have high moly which you researched?

I have a 5.7 in a WK2 with 25k miles with no tick, but have run mostly xw-30 synthetic oils,

Also have a 6.4 in my SRT challenger, but only have less than 1000 miles, nice and quiet.

Have scene a few wiped out hemi cams at local dodge store from roller followers bearings seizing, also in high mileage cop chargers, probably from too much idling.


Is there no dedicated valve train lubrication? Why would idling hurt a roller bearing?

 

[AVB]

Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3
Sounds like you've been on forums where someone is making a mountain out of a mole hill. The Hemi has proven itself worthy over millions of accumulated miles. I've personally been inside of 8, 4 of which were fleet trucks getting engine rebuilds to go back into service for a courier service. All 4 of the fleet engines had between 365,000 and 400,000 miles. All of the camshfts were reused. Zinc is of limited benefit in a roller cam engine with respect to the roller or bearings inside the roller. All 4 of those fleet trucks never got anything other than bulk conventional oil at 10k intervals.

If you want to run Red Line go ahead. It's a great oil. But it simply isn't needed for these engines.

Of note all 4 of the high mileage Hemis could've just had rings bearings and gaskets and been returned to service. But that's not what the customer wanted so they all got a full rebuild.


The lifters are a common failure point on MDS equipped hemi's. I have seen 8-10 cases come through my small dealership in the past year. 3 were in Chargers, 1 was in a Jeep the rest have been Rams. Some of the problems could be caused by the MDS solenoids, not the lifters themselves, but I have seen some stuck lifters.

I am pulling a 5.7 tomorrow but it is for noise in the bottom end.

 

[burla]

If you have no tick, nothing we did was relevant, except maybe after reading all of it you may opt to have an oil with at least some moly.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
Look, there is no doubt that Phillips 66 makes a good oil. Redline has alway had a good reputation as well. This thread though has become a Redline infomercial. Glad it has worked out for you all.


This is the reason why until now we didn't bother posting at Bob's, personally I would have never bothered but Syn wanted to see the reactions, so this was his choice. The info is there for those who want it, but with the constant attacks from like post one, there really is no reason to continue with this thread for me. Maybe if you have Hemi tick, you like it like a badge of honor or something. Some of us chose to do something about it, and we met with success, and she gave us a reach around. I yield all of the final words to the debbie downers that make a living here. If someone with a hemi wants to learn more, pm me or syn or h395 or anyone else who participated.

 

[VNTS]

Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Originally Posted By: VNTS
What other oils have high moly which you researched?

I have a 5.7 in a WK2 with 25k miles with no tick, but have run mostly xw-30 synthetic oils,

Also have a 6.4 in my SRT challenger, but only have less than 1000 miles, nice and quiet.

Have scene a few wiped out hemi cams at local dodge store from roller followers bearings seizing, also in high mileage cop chargers, probably from too much idling.


Is there no dedicated valve train lubrication? Why would idling hurt a roller bearing?



if you disassemble a new hemi, the cam followers, valve train are almost in a horizontal plane and there isnt a lot of splash, my two freinds who work at local store have scene the ball ends of the pushrods on the rockers ground into a semi circle half worn off. a cruiser parked and idling with bulk cheap 20w oil is prone to these problems, they generally dont see it on other cars/trucks. the police upfitters manual for squads recommends 10w-30 mobile1 for the cruisers.

note this is their observations.

 

[PimTac]

"Maybe if you have Hemi tick, you like it like a badge of honor or something"

I am not a fan of Fiat Chrysler. The older Mopar was good but not anymore. That is just my own opinion. Coming in here and throwing blame for being attacked while fueling the flames yourselves doesn't make your case credible.

Your focus is on the moly. Someone else here mentioned the higher HTHS that Redline has and perhaps that is what has solved your ticking. One way to test would be to add a healthy dose of the Liqui-Moly additive with another brand of oil and see what the results are. I suspect that it's not the moly in and of itself that is solving the problem.

Anyway, good luck with your trucks.