Would you support an American Foreign Legion?

[MarkC]

What bugs me is all those fat guys dressed up as Ay-rabs.
What shrine, anyway? Heathens! Possible terrorists?

As for this: "... Jingoistic Nationalism is not something I've ever been privy to here in the states."

You must be kidding.

 

[Shannow]

That's reserved for the world image.

 

[kingrob]

My point here, and I'm leaving it at this, is that you put your foot squarely (or roundly) in your mouth, Mori, when you suggested that "a lot" of Americans are leaving this country for another way of life elsewhere. Less than one percent of the American population doesn't qualify as "a lot" unless you have them all together in the same room. In the future it would be wise to think before you utter an incorrect and potentially sensitive remark based on your own opinion.

Quote:
You must be kidding.


Nope. Aside from the occasional whacko nutjob it's a behavior (or ideology) I've only been privy too on TV. Not saying it isn't there, but maybe it's more common in your neck of the woods than it is mine.

Quote:
That's reserved for the world image.


Correct.

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: kingrob
My point here, and I'm leaving it at this, is that you put your foot squarely (or roundly) in your mouth, Mori, when you suggested that "a lot" of Americans are leaving this country for another way of life elsewhere. Less than one percent of the American population doesn't qualify as "a lot" unless you have them all together in the same room. In the future it would be wise to think before you utter an incorrect and potentially sensitive remark based on your own opinion.


If millions of people do not constitute "a lot of people," then you are just in denial.

Not sure in how far my commentary was insensitive beyond pointing out how odd your use of figurative speech ("I have to do nothing more than to throw a rock in my neighborhood to hit an immigrant" [sic]) was. Chew on your own foot, amigo.

 

[Oldmoparguy1]

Hey guys, don't stop now, I'm learning lots of new words.

Google is my friend.........

 

[TooManyWheels]

With respect to Rob, I have to point out that Jingoistic Nationalism is either the cause or the facilitator of our current need to rebuild our image around the world (as I see that Shannow was pointing out also).

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: moribundman
Originally Posted By: kingrob
I estimate that 99.9 % of Americans live here because it's about the cheapest nation in the world to live comfortably in.

The fondess of cheapness is one of the less endearing qualities.


Why not. Because of Snob value? What's wrong with the cheapest solution that get the stuff done?


True, there are many leaving US but there are more coming here. Every country has immigrants going in and out, it is the overall net flow that matters.

As an immigrant myself, I think US in general (compare to various Asian nations) is more self reliance than other developed nations. Limited social services, limited medical, mid level taxes, pay for your own everything because the nation is trying to lower taxes whenever possible. If you are from a family that can afford all the ingredients to jump start your life (college, health care, a nice neighborhood to grow up in, etc), then you just can't fail. If on the other hand, you can only afford to go to college on a $100k loan, grow up in a slum because that's what your parents can afford, have illness but your parents' got no health insurance, then you have to do a lot more to catch up than if you are in another country like Taiwan or Hong Kong. (much lower education and health care cost, schools are merit based, and bad neighborhood /= bad school or murder every other week).

I have many friends who move back after decades of work, done raising children through colleges and marriage, grandchildren. As typical working class families, they cannot afford to retire in the US due to the sky high medical cost, housing cost, bankrupting social security and medicare, etc. They end up selling their houses and everything else, and move back to a 3rd world (or a semi developing nation) for the low living cost.

In a way I am afraid that I have to do the same to my parents, by sending them back and send them a check once in a while, because there is no way they can afford to retire here. I'm fortunate that I can send them somewhere, but for those of you who have families here for generations and the closest tie outside is Britain or Germany (more expensive nations), I am sorry for you.

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear

Why not? Because of snob value? What's wrong with the cheapest solution that gets the stuff done?



My problem is with word choice.

- cheap criminal
- cheap education
- cheap product
- cheap food

"cheap" implies inferiority, low quality, stinginess, misery, vulgarity, contempt

Now, there's a perfectly good adjective in English that does not imply inferiority or quality. If, however, "cheap" is what you mean, then just keep saying "cheap."

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
As an immigrant myself, I think US in general (compare to various Asian nations) is more self reliance than other developed nations. Limited social services, limited medical, mid level taxes, pay for your own everything because the nation is trying to lower taxes whenever possible. If you are from a family that can afford all the ingredients to jump start your life (college, health care, a nice neighborhood to grow up in, etc), then you just can't fail. If on the other hand, you can only afford to go to college on a $100k loan, grow up in a slum because that's what your parents can afford, have illness but your parents' got no health insurance, then you have to do a lot more to catch up than if you are in another country like Taiwan or Hong Kong. (much lower education and health care cost, schools are merit based, and bad neighborhood /= bad school or murder every other week).

I have many friends who move back after decades of work, done raising children through colleges and marriage, grandchildren. As typical working class families, they cannot afford to retire in the US due to the sky high medical cost, housing cost, bankrupting social security and medicare, etc. They end up selling their houses and everything else, and move back to a 3rd world (or a semi developing nation) for the low living cost.

In a way I am afraid that I have to do the same to my parents, by sending them back and send them a check once in a while, because there is no way they can afford to retire here. I'm fortunate that I can send them somewhere, but for those of you who have families here for generations and the closest tie outside is Britain or Germany (more expensive nations), I am sorry for you.



Having family is such a burden. On a positive note, you aren't in a mercenary army.

I wish you good luck and a little happiness in this dour world.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I have many friends who move back after decades of work, done raising children through colleges and marriage, grandchildren. As typical working class families, they cannot afford to retire in the US due to the sky high medical cost, housing cost, bankrupting social security and medicare, etc. They end up selling their houses and everything else, and move back to a 3rd world (or a semi developing nation) for the low living cost.


My friends from Bangladesh are building their houses now ..for the anticipation of ultimately returning there. On common wages he affords to send money home monthly to his parents and widowed sister ...and a newer used car ..and dresses well ..and affords to send his wife back home for about 6 weeks a year. No children yet ..but his discipline has paid off. He makes it look very easy.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Having family is such a burden. On a positive note, you aren't in a mercenary army.


Even in Gary's world he wouldn't be in a merc' army. He's here LEGALLY on some diversity visa.

The deal with legal immigrants is we tend to get a better citizen. They may speak a little different or dress a little different ..but the rabble of the rest of the world just doesn't make it here legitimately. We get the higher educated and (essentially) the best that they have to offer. This is a good thing.

OTOH, if we're just soaking up that which we have more than enough of on the domestic level ..then what good does it do us? I'm interested in making the USA a better place to live ..not making the huddles masses a comfy home at my expense.

Then again, we can just give up and allow the migrating mass of humanity open access to our nation ..let them turn it into a place like they came from.

Migrating from one fertile plane to the next ..picking it clean ..and moving on.

Sounds good, no??

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Having family is such a burden. On a positive note, you aren't in a mercenary army.


Even in Gary's world he wouldn't be in a merc' army.


I meant Panda should be glad he wasn't unfortunate enough to have been born in a country where 12 year olds are pressed into military service. He got an opportunity, right? It is regrettable that he sees no way for his family to ultimately face anything but an obstinate future.

 

[XS650]

Quote:
Then again, we can just give up and allow the migrating mass of humanity open access to our nation ..let them turn it into a place like they came from.

Migrating from one fertile plane to the next ..picking it clean ..and moving on.


Gary, I though that was worth repeating, so I did. And I'm not even one of our many resident Xenophobes.

From my POV.

The immigrants that come here to better their lives and make this a better country are welcome.

The immigrants who come here to learn and then go home and make their old country a better place are welcome.

The economic opportunists who just come here for money can take a flying leap.

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Migrating from one fertile plane to the next ..picking it clean ..and moving on.


I have never understood the US's inability to secure their borders in a reasonable fashion. Now the unwillingness to do so, I do understand. The reason for this unwillingness is greed, which seeks inexpensive labor without associated cost without considering the consequences. Maybe you could throw those traitors (also economic opportunists in their own right) jointly with the illegals into your mercenary army.

 

[Gary Allan]

They would expect management positions ..but I'd be all for putting them on the front line.

It would be nice if the mob got to actually administer punishment for what they consider anti-social behavior. It would, at least, make for more truth in disclosure of intent. We're often taken to the cleaners out of practical necessity. Naturally, there are those who use that necessity to further advantage themselves in the required action. It's sorta like "while you're there" type thing in a Deliverance kinda way. I would happily pummel and stomp these types with zeal. A true non-crime of passion.

As I've always said, I have no trouble funding any enterprise ..just as long as I get a fair share of the benefits for the investment. Our most successful appear to be those experiencing the gains ..while most of us just get the bill and told that we should like it because it would be much worse without their vital role in the trip to the cleaners. "You're lucky we did that to you. We care

"

 

[PandaBear]

Being here legally and spent 1/2 my life here. My folks sold everything to come here and bought every asset they have with them, and invest in this country, in the early to mid 90s when the economy wasn't that great yet.

I'm not saying that they expect welfare or payout, just that the fact is in this country a sustainable retirement is not really something achievable if you starts in the late 40s and early 50s. Fortunately I'm doing fine and they pay for my education, without government's help at all (private high school and foreign college tuition, higher than what you guys complain about right now as a local resident). We came as a middle class, and we are still in the middle class, without taking a thing from the US and have made our share of the GDP with the work we have done in this country.

Enough about myself, my main point is that many of those who were from this country, live here and work here the whole life, could easily get into a seriously dangerous situation because of the social structure in this nation. True, we make more money than other developed nations due to lower overhead and lower tax, but we are taking the profits and distribute it in an uneven way: higher housing cost (due to average higher income), higher health care cost, more lawyers, more on consumer spending than investing in infrastructure, larger military, more expensive education, more illegal immigrants to sustain the consumer spending (and the unpaid medical and education expense that the consumer have to pay for), higher crime rate in the slum, etc. etc.

In the end, I see that American as a nation could easily be surpassed if we stay the course. Most of my relatives and friends back home are doing just as well as us without coming over here, and their risk factor is not as high as in the US for all the sudden, unexpected things that could pop up, like my Dad's medical issue could easily bankrupt him if he could go back for the treatment.

I could see that we might end up being the old Europe super powers who peaked and start going downhill, or even the nation being bankrupted like the wall street recently.


There used to be illegal immigrants from Taiwan, Japan, and Korea to the US, now they are doing fine and the illegal kind of stopped. In probably 20 years the illegal from China will also stop if they keep improving the way they are. Depends on how Mexico is doing, they might stop coming one day too.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
There used to be illegal immigrants from Taiwan, Japan, and Korea to the US, now they are doing fine and the illegal kind of stopped. In probably 20 years the illegal from China will also stop if they keep improving the way they are. Depends on how Mexico is doing, they might stop coming one day too.


My fear is that they will stop due to there being no advantage to being here over staying in the 'hole they already occupy. As we're quickly learning, the path to prosperity is at our expense ..either domestically or abroad.

 

[outrun]

I am late here but here is my 2qts worth.

Part of me is conflicted here. I am the 1st generation son of naturalized emmigrant parents. Regardless, I consider my an American no matter what less than educated other american citizens may consider me as. I have served state, local and the federal goverment loyally. I more than earned my right to call myself an American. Countless emmigrants built this country so I can not discount their loyalty in the slightest.

Then again as a student of foreign policy I can not help but to default to histories lessons when making an analysis on mercenaries. Two lessons come to my mind on this and they are both dire. This places me in the mysterious grey area on this topic.

Machiavelli in his work "The Prince" extensively discusses mercenaries and it his opinion that their loyalties can not be trusted. A true leadership draws its strength from the collective voluntary loyalty of the citizens. Therefore, the need for mercenaries reflects a deterioration here of civic duty, in my intrepration.

Second, in the "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" the rise of non-Roman emperors (or specifically emperors of ethnic tribes historically hostile to Rome) and the use of mercenary armies weakened Rome according to Gibbon.

 

[kingrob]

On the contrast, the use of Viking mercenary force by the Saxons helped put an end to the centuries of Norse conquest previously inflicted by the same marauding Vikings that helped "tame" England. The spoils of victory that they were promised is in a way very similar to the promise of national citizenship that Foreign Legions have historically been offered for duty in the battlefield. It "can" work, historically, depending on how strong the central governing force is.

You can't really compare the foreign mercenaries in Machiavelli's day to Gary's outlining of what would constitute an American Foreign Legion. His hordes weren't promised anything but monetary gain, therefore they were up for sale to the highest bidder. Machiavelli favored a citizenship-based militia, one whose loyalty could be trusted due to its patriotic ties. If the only thing that's offered for Legionnaire status is full citizenship and all ensuing benefits, then we're in a whole different ballgame here.