Would you all like to see ISO 4548-12 Oil Filter Lab Testing Comparison, Efficiency & Capacity, Pressure vs Flow, Bubble Point, and Burst?

[Ignatius]

Yes how often the filter goes into bypass seems to be a real concern.

I was going to make a post in this thread on similar grounds as what @iunderpressure posted. The oil filter bypass debate with Subaru has been raging for over a decade and while it is one of heated discussion, to date no one has come up with a definitive answer as to why things are the way they are and how the variables apply to aftermarket oil filters.

Without turning this into another bypass argument thread (and believe me it can and likely will become another one of the endless number of argument threads if allowed to) here are the basic facts we do know:

- The Subaru OEM oil filter for 4-cylinder engines has maintained the usage of a 23.2psi bypass valve since model year 2009 when Subaru began using positive displacement oil pumps that flow at max capacity of 14.5 gallons per minute and the OEM oil filter was created to accommodate that output.

- The primary arguement is that ALL oil filters must have a bypass valve setting of 23.2psi or higher (like Wix's 27psi setting) or else, with no variables related to the dynamics and performance of other oil filters taken into consideration. The common counter-arguement is that a filter with less restrictive media and/or higher flow and/or lower delta-P, etc can utilize a lower bypass psi to no negative impact compared to the higher bypass filters.

If they are willing to respond (and you are certainly not obligated to engage in this discussion) I would like to ask @Ascent Filtration Testing and Ascent Filtration Testing alone what their thoughts might be on this topic should they be able to share any technical expertise they have on this specific subject. Li

 

[ZeeOSix]

All I can say about the whole bypass valve debate is nobody really knows that the flow vs delta-p curve is for an OEM Subaru oil filter. Maybe a new thread should be started, but as seen with many other threads on this subject they just go round-and-round to nowhere and/or get locked up.

Purolator tested a PureOne (back in the yellow can days) and the flow vs delta-p curve showed the delta-p with hot oil (viscosity of basically 5W-30 at 200F) was around 5~6 PSI (iirc) with ~12 GPM.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

I was going to make a post in this thread on similar grounds as what @iunderpressure posted. The oil filter bypass debate with Subaru has been raging for over a decade and while it is one of heated discussion, to date no one has come up with a definitive answer as to why things are the way they are and how the variables apply to aftermarket oil filters.

Without turning this into another bypass argument thread (and believe me it can and likely will become another one of the endless number of argument threads if allowed to) here are the basic facts we do know:

- The Subaru OEM oil filter for 4-cylinder engines has maintained the usage of a 23.2psi bypass valve since model year 2009 when Subaru began using positive displacement oil pumps that flow at max capacity of 14.5 gallons per minute and the OEM oil filter was created to accommodate that output.

- The primary arguement is that ALL oil filters must have a bypass valve setting of 23.2psi or higher (like Wix's 27psi setting) or else, with no variables related to the dynamics and performance of other oil filters taken into consideration. The common counter-arguement is that a filter with less restrictive media and/or higher flow and/or lower delta-P, etc can utilize a lower bypass psi to no negative impact compared to the higher bypass filters.

If they are willing to respond (and you are certainly not obligated to engage in this discussion) I would like to ask @Ascent Filtration Testing and Ascent Filtration Testing alone what their thoughts might be on this topic should they be able to share any technical expertise they have on this specific subject. Li

I own a 1998 Subaru Outback Impreza Sport with a 4 cylinder (still running) purchased from a long time ago in a galaxy not so far away, so I will absolutely look into this and give you my take. Just need a little time.

 

[Mainia]

Just wondering if you have an est. ETA on the videos? I know we don't want to be too forward as we know you were sick. I hope it is not long haul covid or something worse. Sure hope you are just slammed with work and not still sick.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Hey Mainia, I really appreciate your concern! All good health wise I am happy to report. Happy to say I am working with a very excellent and well known product reviewer/youtuber on the 3rd efficiency/capacity video. He will make it much more interesting, and more professional than I ever could. We are in the process of putting it all together. Not slammed with work, but a few testing jobs lined up.

 

[RamFan]

Hey Mainia, I really appreciate your concern! All good health wise I am happy to report. Happy to say I am working with a very excellent and well known product reviewer/youtuber on the 3rd efficiency/capacity video. He will make it much more interesting, and more professional than I ever could. We are in the process of putting it all together. Not slammed with work, but a few testing jobs lined up.

Is it Kilmer?

It's Kilmer, isn't it?

Ugh, it's Kilmer...

J/k, glad to hear you're doing well!

 

[ChristianReske]

The Honda S2000 has a unique Oil filter, it has higher torque specs (7/8 turn / 20-24 Nm / 15-18 Lb/ft) to prevent that the oil filter comes loose from engine vibrations, causing oil leaks and a engine fire. This happend, Honda adressed it with this Filter.

In the honda S2000 Community was also a (almost) 100% belief that this Oil filter was special also because of the Bypass valve setting and size, people where always saying that the Bypass valve was designed special for the S2000.

Recently Honda has replaced the Filter after 15 Years with a new one, it is now made by MAHLE Thailand. It has the same Torque specification, but the new Bypass valve is much, much smaller.

Have a look, best at 5:54 :





So i think that the saying "Special designed Bypass valve" or "The bypass valve is specified by the car manufacturer" is a myth.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Is it Kilmer?

It's Kilmer, isn't it?

Ugh, it's Kilmer...

J/k, glad to hear you're doing well!

The Honda S2000 has a unique Oil filter, it has higher torque specs (7/8 turn / 20-24 Nm / 15-18 Lb/ft) to prevent that the oil filter comes loose from engine vibrations, causing oil leaks and a engine fire. This happend, Honda adressed it with this Filter.

In the honda S2000 Community was also a (almost) 100% belief that this Oil filter was special also because of the Bypass valve setting and size, people where always saying that the Bypass valve was designed special for the S2000.

Recently Honda has replaced the Filter after 15 Years with a new one, it is now made by MAHLE Thailand. It has the same Torque specification, but the new Bypass valve is much, much smaller.

Have a look, best at 5:54 :

So i think that the saying "Special designed Bypass valve" or "The bypass valve is specified by the car manufacturer" is a myth.

Interesting. Although the stamped steel "leaf spring" can appear the same by eye, they can have have different tension and compression properties. Material composition, geometry, and not to mention quality control can seem the same by eye, but with such small pressures and forces involved can make a huge difference. A good analogy for differences is Hooke's law for coil spring constants k, to the Beam model for "leaf springs".
I know that some manufacturers in general do engineer bypass to internal spec's they have deemed correct. That being said I am sure some do not.

 

[Mainia]

Once you stated “synthetic“ … that rules out OEM filters some of us use … like PF63E
Hardly anyone wants to pay for Royal Purple, BTW …

The most controversial OEM filter in the world is the Hyundai/Kia filter. They use its lack of use in warranted cars to void warranties in every country. In the USA, Hyundai/Kia have the least power to use the filter against car owners because of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Many want to see what "powers" this filter has as far a filtering efficiency vs other OEM's and high efficiency filters as Hyundai/Kia say others reduce oil flow to a dangerous level in some cases. That "perceived" lack of flow from "other" filters is where they say that gives them the right to deny warranty claims on their motors.

This of course is used to hinder warranty claims with Hyundai's 10 year and GOING piston/bearing metallurgy problem that has NEVER been fixed and has cost Hyundai/Kia 4+ billion dollars in engine replacement ( by their own account) so far and going on and on. Some dealers have had as many as 300 cars sitting waiting for motors one dealer at one time. With new trashed engines coming in daily all over the world.

New 2020/21 Hyundai Kona's NA 2.0 liter motors are failing as soon as 500 miles. The 1.6T motor in my car is an anomaly and is one of their better motors that IF you make it past 1,000 miles without a piston skirt falling into your oil pan you will have a high chance of having a good, normal motor like most other people have across other brands. I am at 25,000 hard turbo miles and going. Knock on wood.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The most controversial OEM filter in the world is the Hyundai/Kia filter. They use its lack of use in warranted cars to void warranties in every country. In the USA, Hyundai/Kia have the least power to use the filter against car owners because of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Many want to see what "powers" this filter has as far a filtering efficiency vs other OEM's and high efficiency filters as Hyundai/Kia say others reduce oil flow to a dangerous level in some cases. That "perceived" lack of flow from "other" filters is where they say that gives them the right to deny warranty claims on their motors.

In the USA, Hyundai would have to prove that an aftermarket filter caused the damage. I agree they are using not using an OEM filter as an "excuse", and 99% of the people don't realize that Hyundai would have to prove an aftermarket filter caused the damage in order to deny warranty damage caused by the filter. And they can't totally deny warranty on the whole car just because a non-OEM part is used, they can only deny warranty on whatever damage the non-OEM part caused. I'd bet if someone did a flow vs delta-p test on an OEM Hyundai filter, it would not flow any better than most aftermarket oil filters.

 

[Mainia]

In the USA, Hyundai would have to prove that an aftermarket filter caused the damage. I agree they are using not using an OEM filter as an "excuse", and 99% of the people don't realize that Hyundai would have to prove an aftermarket filter caused the damage in order to deny warranty damage caused by the filter. And they can't totally deny warranty on the whole car just because a non-OEM part is used, they can only deny warranty on whatever damage the non-OEM part caused. I'd bet if someone did a flow vs delta-p test on an OEM Hyundai filter, it would not flow any better than most aftermarket oil filters.

When my Elantra 1.8 went belly up at 14,000 miles ( galled pistons taking out lifters from the aluminum slurry) they tried to use the Fram Ultra against me, as you know from my earlier posts. I threw the Magneson-Moss Warranty Act back at them before he could take a breath from his lasts words, and I never heard another word about it. What would of happened if I was not informed? Who knows.

 

[ZeeOSix]

When my Elantra 1.8 went belly up at 14,000 miles ( galled pistons taking out lifters from the aluminum slurry) they tried to use the Fram Ultra against me, as you know from my earlier posts. I threw the Magneson-Moss Warranty Act back at them before he could take a breath from his lasts words, and I never heard another word about it. What would of happened if I was not informed? Who knows.

Yeah, they knew it wasn't the Fram. If they firmly believed that the Fram caused it and had proof, they would have denied warranty and make you get a lawyer.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Hey folks, the tests are all complete, and the results very interesting indeed. Some filters over performed and some under performed. One to a point of failure in my opinion. The video is underway. Sorry I cannot share the results yet, but it is worth the wait. The time delay is on me and I do apologize. That being said, I know I said I was going to look at a Subaru filter. I have an older Sub that I keep running. Can someone remind me which filter specifically it was?

 

[ZeeOSix]

@Ascent Filtration Testing ... Suggestion, when you post up the video you might want to start a new thread and then reference/link this one in the new thread. Otherwise, it could be pretty buried in this long thread for people not following the progress.

 

[RDY4WAR]

@Ascent Filtration Testing ... Suggestion, when you post up the video you might want to start a new thread and then reference/link this one in the new thread. Otherwise, it could be pretty buried in this long thread for people not following the progress.

I agree with this. I just now caught back up with this thread only because it happened to pop up under "new posts."

I'm anxious to see the results. I just spun a new Fram Ultra on the wife's car yesterday so it better not be the under performer. lol

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Thank you for the advise ZeeOsix, I will do that. Here is a small preview for those that are following. Some of the AC-Delco Ultraguard Gold efficiency data for your viewing pleasure.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

I agree with this. I just now caught back up with this thread only because it happened to pop up under "new posts."

I'm anxious to see the results. I just spun a new Fram Ultra on the wife's car yesterday so it better not be the under performer. lol

You are all clear.

 

[iunderpressure]

Can someone remind me which filter specifically it was?

The Subaru filter is part # 152108AA15A. It has I believe a 27 psi bypass valve. Some people believe this is a must and only buy the OE filter or the Wix 57055 that has the same high bypass setting. Others think bypass settings have more to do with what is required based on how well the media flows. All this is tied in with the high flowing Subaru oil pumps and if that requires the higher bypass valve setting.

 

[iunderpressure]

This filter test is like Christmas for me! It’s hands down my most anticipated thread/video.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

The Subaru filter is part # 152108AA15A. Got ya, are there any specific filters they say don't use? It's tuff for me as a tester because I usually compare filters and test them at the same conditions. Manufactures specify to me those conditions, unless it is a prototype or and R and D project. We will need to dig in further to get some more info on the engine operating flows and pressures, RPM.