Will the chemistry of low visc oils catch up to physical properties of thicker ones

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Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
[...] However, as the paper is saying, increased attention to boundary conditions via moly or whatever, even when a higher % of surfaces are boundary as in when using lower viscosity, the overall ("forest") actually can achieve less or equal wear compared to higher viscosity oils since boundary conditions are handled better using surface active additives. Also, low temperature flow of lower viscosity oils reduce wear more than thicker oils, again part of the big picture, the overall effect.[...]


The keyword here is "can", which is of the hypothetical variety until something like a field test study shows it in a definitive way;

As for the "big picture", yes you can combine several techniques, including mechanical ones like special ring shape, liner texture, cooling parameters etc. The objections though are that:

- that was not the OP's question / thread's title; the thread is about whether the thinner oil alone can match the thicker one

- the long list of additional mechanical measures, mentioned in both the quoted article and your post, suggest that so far the thin oil can't work alone and has to be complemented with additional mechanical tweaks; and this is the reason why no one is backspeccing 0W16 into older engines. When that will happen, we'll know that the OP's question has been answered positively.
 
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
...You're not seeing the forest for the trees. In an engine & at any given condition, a certain % is hydrodynamic and it's zero wear there. The other part is boundary (scraping together) conditions. With lower viscosity, a greater % is boundary. Sounds bad, right? And that's what confuses a lot of people as they only see that "tree". .... However, as the paper is saying, increased attention to boundary conditions via moly or whatever, even when a higher % of surfaces are boundary as in when using lower viscosity, the overall ("forest") actually can achieve less or equal wear compared to higher viscosity oils since boundary conditions are handled better using surface active additives. Also, low temperature flow of lower viscosity oils reduce wear more than thicker oils, again part of the big picture, the overall effect.

I imagine these same sorts of whiners and naysayers were objecting when thinner 10w30 oil first started to be used in the 1950's when additive (surface tribofilm) technology was just beginning to make up for what thicker oil did in the past. "That thar 10w30 with ZDDP can't replace my 50 weight oil."-- 1953, in a garage somewhere.....


+1


Thank you OFM.
 
P.S. Just have a look at Fig. 5 in the previously quoted article ( https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs40544-016-0107-9.pdf ). By changing the piston ring / liner parameters, you make the thinner oil perform better (and becoming an "acceptable" choice), but the thicker oil still outperforms it when used in the same engine configuration.
 
Originally Posted by nap
P.S. Just have a look at Fig. 5 in the previously quoted article ( https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs40544-016-0107-9.pdf ). By changing the piston ring / liner parameters, you make the thinner oil perform better (and becoming an "acceptable" choice), but the thicker oil still outperforms it when used in the same engine configuration.
It does get complicated when all different kinds of engines are lumped into one group. True that blanket statements about "thinner will get better wear than thicker" don't always apply.
From what I got from the paper though, is that there is still more that can be done using surface treatments that means thinner and thinner oils is the future trend. .... Say it's 2030: Toyota uses 0w8 in everything they've got, and they match previous era (2015 time frame) wear results by lots of moly, esters, pentagonal titanium hydride (OK, I made that one up for the 'future', ha...), or whatever they invent.
The important point is that thinner oil has matched thicker oil in protection. Or maybe exceeded(?) At least match is all we ask.
 
Originally Posted by hatt
Originally Posted by fdcg27


Pretty much anything in good overall condition is worth fixing.
Vehicles in regular use in most parts of the country don't stay that way forever.
Rust never sleeps for those of us in the north and that includes trucks.
A pickup that needs a transmission, a rear end or a new front end is probably a used up old thing without many miles left in it and is unlikely to have a pristine engine.
I see. So engines don't really outlast pickup trucks.


So you bold the relevant part of my post and still miss the point?
Were I buying something 20+ years old with the expectation of daily driver reliability for the next two or three years, it'd be an Accord stick or maybe a BMW e36 stick and both of these picks are based upon my personal experience.
 
As soon as they stop trying to use 0w20 in a turbo
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Originally Posted by slacktide_bitog
As soon as they stop trying to use 0w20 in a turbo
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They're not trying, they're doing. And the vast majority will encounter very little drama.
 
Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by slacktide_bitog
As soon as they stop trying to use 0w20 in a turbo
27.gif



They're not trying, they're doing. And the vast majority will encounter very little drama.





Yep, and the only drama is here on BITOG.
 
What makes me laugh is that folks assume they know better than OE's and that the OE's wouldn't test Turbo's or GDI engines in their labs with 20wt oils before producing the car and printing the owners manuals and would just take their chances with huge liability under warranties and use folks as a guinea pig instead all because they need to meet CAFE and because 20wt is "Good Enough" and not "Suitable for excellent engine life and able to perform under normal driving conditions the way folks would operate the vehicle on average"

My 5w20 UOA's are posted here where I drove my high reving 4 cylinder daily under fleet use and they are stellar. Sure it's not a Turbo or GDI, but it was an engine that called for 5w30 previously and it was operated like a fleet with multiple hours on the highway at high speeds, extended periods of idling, terrible stop-go traffic, multiple re-starts without re-heating the engine back to operating temperature, so good enough to classify it as Severe Duty.

Where are all the imploding Turbo's and GDI's using 20 weights from all the manufacturers specifying it? Where are all the OE's back peddling and now specifying thicker oil weights in TSB's? Oh that's right. THIS ISN'T HAPPENING. Sure there might be one off cases here/there but it's not in-mass.

It's fear based on what people are comfortable using in Australia or another >.

Use the oil / weight specified in the manual, establish a trend on UOA's and change one variable at a time and see what's best for you. No blanket advice of thicker is better because because because ....
 
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Originally Posted by StevieC

It's fear based on what people are comfortable using in Australia or another >.

Use the oil / weight specified in the manual, establish a trend on UOA's and change one variable at a time and see what's best for you. No blanket advice of thicker is better because because because ....


Again...GMH (General Motors Holden), SPECIFY Dexos 2 oils in their vehicles, and state that this must be used for warranty purposes, and not to use Dexos 1.

It's got zero to do with what Australian's are comfortable doing...it's what GM is telling them to do.

What you are claiming is a misrepresentation of the case.
 
I was talking about weights... Well in Australia they use 30wt or 40wt or 50wt or whatever and here we are using 20wt in the same engine because of "CAFE Conspiracy"
(I wasn't talking about Dexos 2.)

If you look I said... "Use the oil / weight specified in the manual, establish a trend on UOA's and change one variable at a time and see what's best for you. No blanket advice of thicker is better because because because ...."
 
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We generally don't get ''told'' what viscosity of oil to use, just the standards it needs to meet, and the usual temp/viscosity chart. Of course there are exceptions, and sometimes there is only one oil grade meeting those specs. Naturally the owners handbook is ignored by all and it gets whatever the owner or oil change place wants to put in, be that better or worse than recommended. This random use get random results.

Reading this thread, and the talk about fuel economy, and engines ''feeling'' sluggish with thicker oil...I have been putting in a few more miles than normal in my car the last few days, and running 15W-60, it is way beyond any recommendation from Volvo. The trip computer is showing some good figures, better than when I first got the car and was using a 40 weight, better even than 5w30. Of course fuel economy is highly variable, but in this case is far better than the doom sayers would have everyone believe.
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
[...]
What you are claiming is a misrepresentation of the case.


It was inevitable, along with an attempt to moving the goalposts... ("Where are all the imploding Turbo's and GDI's")....

Let's remember that catastrophic failures happen as the result of catastrophic events (loss of lubricant, oil pump failure, clogged oil passages etc).

We're discussing differences in wear rates here. If you want to see some real life nasty stuff, googlesearch for time chain and piston rings related recalls and TSBs. No, the engines don't implode, but the aftermath of a time chain failure, particularly in an interference engine, is not something easy on your wallet. Neither does a ring set replacement. I'd rather not have such at 50k miles....
 
Originally Posted by nap
Originally Posted by Shannow
[...]
What you are claiming is a misrepresentation of the case.


It was inevitable, along with an attempt to moving the goalposts... ("Where are all the imploding Turbo's and GDI's")....

Let's remember that catastrophic failures happen as the result of catastrophic events (loss of lubricant, oil pump failure, clogged oil passages etc).

We're discussing differences in wear rates here. If you want to see some real life nasty stuff, googlesearch for time chain and piston rings related recalls and TSBs. No, the engines don't implode, but the aftermath of a time chain failure, particularly in an interference engine, is not something easy on your wallet. Neither does a ring set replacement. I'd rather not have such at 50k miles....




That's poor engineering not the fault of the owner because they used a 20wt instead of a 30 or 40wt. If the manual/oil-cap spec'ed a 20 weight and the timing chain failed that's on the OE for poor design or poor choice of components and/or their quality. *Cough* *Cough* GM. It's amazing that there are tons of timing chain engines running around on 20 weights living really long lives. I wonder why.
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Originally Posted by StevieC

That's poor engineering not the fault of the owner because they used a 20wt instead of a 30 or 40wt.


Yet it seems that the poor engineering all happened when the manufacturers transitioned to the 20wt..... :-)
 
Originally Posted by nap
Originally Posted by StevieC

That's poor engineering not the fault of the owner because they used a 20wt instead of a 30 or 40wt.


Yet it seems that the poor engineering all happened when the manufacturers transitioned to the 20wt..... :-)


Amazing that none of the OE's ditched the 20wt idea for 30wt's and instead changed their engineering eh?
wink.gif
 
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Originally Posted by nap
Originally Posted by StevieC


Amazing that none of the OE's ditched the 20wt idea for 30wt's and instead changed their engineering eh?
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Not quite:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4487245/1

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Once case.... How many different OE's and engines are there running 20 weights? Why all of a sudden now is there a 16 weight if 20's were so bad? Enough with the conspiracy already. Want to see my Dodge Journey UOA running a 20 weight under fleet conditions in an engine that was spec'ed for a 30 weight previously?
 
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Enough with the conspiracy already.


What's all this "Conspiracy" you people keep bringing up these days...it's the new "hate".

The drive for thinner oils is no conspiracy...the rules around CAFE and the things that OEMs must do if they choose this path are clearly written out, and available for all.

Stop with rubbishing on about conspiracies...it doesn't strengthen you point one iota.

Originally Posted by StevieC
Want to see my Dodge Journey UOA running a 20 weight under fleet conditions in an engine that was spec'ed for a 30 weight previously?

....On(c)e Case...LOL
 
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