Why would you NOT use 0W-xx?

Pennzoil motor oil
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we really need a chart made up and put on a sticky.
with many brands and grades showing thickness at different temps.
that would be cool!
 
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
You need to come to grips that an "0" is thin, period. You can play the semantics game if you want, but its futile to do so.


Your right, SAE 0 oil would be very thin. But SAE 0w30 is not thin, and that is the ultimate point..
 
Originally Posted By: electrolover
we really need a chart made up and put on a sticky.
with many brands and grades showing thickness at different temps.
that would be cool!

http://members.themotoroilevaluator.com/index.php?id=202

so how come my VQ35 uses 5W30 but since it's so hard on oil soooo many highly recommend Mobil 1 0W40 or GC 0W30?
this is for some of the negative statements i read in this thread.
 
0w = 6200mPa*s @ -35C for CCS, and 60,000mPa*s @ -40C for Pumpability
5w = 6600 @ -30C, and 60,000 @-35C
10w = 7000 @ -25C, and 60,000 @ -30C
15w = 7000 @ -20C, and 60,000 @ -25C
20w = 9500 @ -15C, and 60,000 @ -20C
25w = 13,000 @ -10C, and 60,000 @ -15C

The lower the viscosity, the easier the oil is to pump at winter temperatures, and the lower the stress on the oil pump drive, starter, and battery. Notice the big jump in allowable viscosity between 15w and 20w; 7000 to 9500. I would think twice about putting a 20w oil in my engine if temperatures much below freezing are expected.

Be nice to see this on a chart with the figures at the same temperature, to see some real world pumpability figures of the different weight winter rated oils.
 
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
You need to come to grips that an "0" is thin, period.

And you need to come to grips with what this first number (before W) actually means.

Example: take two oils, 10w30 and 0w-30. At operating temperature (say 212F, for simplicity), they're both just as thin. And this is as thin as they'll ever get.

Now, as the temperature drops, both of these oils will become thicker. The only difference is that the 0w30 oil will not become as thick as the 10w30, but they will both still be thicker than when they were at 212F.
 
so is fuel economy really a concern going from a 5w30 to 0w40?
that might prevent some.

but would using 0w30 just be a good compromise?
 
stuff is wierd... i read that a 5w40 is thicker at 75 deg than a 5/30. so i think we need to know more than just the grade to make a proper choice
 
Originally Posted By: NismoMax80
so is fuel economy really a concern going from a 5w30 to 0w40?
that might prevent some.

Depends on actual HT/HS value of the particular oils. Some 5w30 oils out there have HT/HS that's almost as high as some 0w-40, in which case you would not notice any fuel economy differences.

Quote:


but would using 0w30 just be a good compromise?

Again, depends on the specific 0w-30.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: JasonBraswell
How about the fact 0W-whatevers will burn more oil in a high mileage engine. I can tell you for a fact in my 97 LC the 10w-40 burns a lot of less oil compared to the 0w-40 per se.

How about the fact that that's probably because of other properties of oil besides its 0w rating?
wink.gif



Maybe, or the properties needed to make it an 0w spec'd oil. We can only speculate.
 
Originally Posted By: jstutz
Reasons why you wouldn't buy 0w30 practically.

You have an older or high mileage car
you cant buy it in dino so you have to run synthetics
Cost is double that of a 5w30 conventional
In most of the US, it will make little difference to justify the cost.
volatility is usually worse

These days dino is so good it is really hard to justify a 0w30.


Correct.
 
Could someone elaborate on the concept mentioned above that German Castrol 0W30 tends to be "thicker" at most temperatures than most 5W30's?

At what low temperature does the better flow characteristics kick in for GC? Am I safe in saying that in common North American winter temps. of about 10F to 32F, GC is "thicker/flows worse" than most 5w30's?
 
Originally Posted By: electrolover
stuff is wierd... i read that a 5w40 is thicker at 75 deg than a 5/30. so i think we need to know more than just the grade to make a proper choice

Yes, we do. A LOT more. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Could someone elaborate on the concept mentioned above that German Castrol 0W30 tends to be "thicker" at most temperatures than most 5W30's?

At what low temperature does the better flow characteristics kick in for GC?

As I understand, it's basically any temperature under the range in which the measurements are taken for the 5w rating.


Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Am I safe in saying that in common North American winter temps. of about 10F to 32F, GC is "thicker/flows worse" than most 5w30's?

Yes, but not by much. People make a big deal of the fact that it's thicker but that's mostly to make a point; in reality, the difference isn't too big compared to most oils.
 
This has been an interesting and informative thread, thanks for the replies. I'm going to try it in the 68K 06 Jeep GC we just got that calls for 5w30 mainly for the cold starts and lower wear potential.

For those that are convinced that 0W is thin, have you ever drained hot oil? 0W isn't nearly that thin out of the bottle.
 
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I always thought that on oil with a larger base number (a 10W as opposed to a 0W) meant that less viscosity improvers were used,giving you "more real oil" per se.


You are correct.


No! It's not that simple. Most 0w-x oil, if not all of them, require the use of more robust base oils, virtually always at least a G-III, IV, or even V synthetic. With such oils USUALLY comes a naturally higher viscosity index, which in turn, would not need the use of larger quantities of vis index improvers. So, in basic terms, you can NOT generalize this way.
 
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Yes that's the thing... it was speculated for some time Mobil 1 0w30 achieved its spread by the use of more group IV base oil instead of viscosity index improvers. Of course we don't know for sure anything and if it's a combination of the two. But lets say just for grins that we had a 5w30 oil that used mostly group III basestock and the same company made a 0w30 but instead of more VII's simply achieved it by using more group IV and V basetstocks. Technically, the new oil is not any more likely to shear down than the other. So we can't just apply that old logic of larger spread = more shear prone anymore.

I don't know if they changed the Mobil 1 0w30 again, but there was a time its DS had more evidence of more group iv or v basestock than their most recent datasheet. But from the used oil analysis I've seen, I haven't seen an issue with the 0w30 shearing more now than it used to, so I don't know. They could also be using some very high quality vii's or something.
 
Originally Posted By: troyb43
0w = 6200mPa*s @ -35C for CCS, and 60,000mPa*s @ -40C for Pumpability
5w = 6600 @ -30C, and 60,000 @-35C
10w = 7000 @ -25C, and 60,000 @ -30C
15w = 7000 @ -20C, and 60,000 @ -25C
20w = 9500 @ -15C, and 60,000 @ -20C
25w = 13,000 @ -10C, and 60,000 @ -15C

Be nice to see this on a chart with the figures at the same temperature, to see some real world pumpability figures of the different weight winter rated oils.


That's not really feasible because those numbers in my earlier post were copied directly out of the SAE J300 specification. Those are the required test temperatures and allowable viscosities that candidate oils have to meet to get the given w-rating. But I do have an example: PetroCanada's Duron Synthetic 0w30 has a CCS viscosity of 5651 @ -35C, and 3192 @ -30C. This oil has viscosity lower than the limit at -35C to earn the 0w rating, and the viscosity at -30C is far below the limit to earn a 5w rating. It is safe to assume that if an oil has a certain w number, it will automatically far exceed the requirements for cold flow of any larger-number w-rating.

It is also interesting to note how much the viscosity of the Duron oil increased in that last 5 degrees of cooling: (5651-3192)/3192 = 77% increase. These temperatures are getting close to the point where the oil will turn to Jello.
 
Am I the only one that thinks it seems odd to look at 40C as the cold value for 0W30 or 5W30, etc??

That would be a very hot start for many of us.

Tomorrow morning it will be -12f, and -25 in Minneapolis.
That is when the 0W oils really shine. For those who think 0W is thin, try adding a qt at 20 below...... it takes a LONG time!
 
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