Why would you NOT use 0W-xx?

[chubbs1]

0wxx can be used in almost any app except a few HD vehicles that do a lot of towing and hauling. Manuals of those vehicles will usually state 5wxx is the lightest oil to use. In PCM apps. You could use a 0W in almost anything you can think of. Some racing cars are even using extremely thin 0w5 and 0w10, but that is a different post all together.

 

[gfh77665]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
I wish some others could figure this out, too. Some in the "thin" crowd goes ballistic when presented with the fact of the matter.

What does 0w have to do with thinness?


Here is a link for you, to help you understand viscosity.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/oil_viscosity.htm

The 2nd paragraph states:

The viscosity rating of a motor oil is determined in a laboratory by a Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) test procedure. The viscosity of the oil is measured and given a number, which some people also refer to as the "weight" (thickness) of the oil. The lower the viscosity rating or weight, the thinner the oil. The higher the viscosity rating, the thicker the oil.

 

[AZjeff]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
I wish some others could figure this out, too. Some in the "thin" crowd goes ballistic when presented with the fact of the matter.

What does 0w have to do with thinness?


Here is a link for you, to help you understand viscosity.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/oil_viscosity.htm

The 2nd paragraph states:

The viscosity rating of a motor oil is determined in a laboratory by a Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) test procedure. The viscosity of the oil is measured and given a number, which some people also refer to as the "weight" (thickness) of the oil. The lower the viscosity rating or weight, the thinner the oil. The higher the viscosity rating, the thicker the oil.


Correct. And the -30 is the viscosity rating at operating temp and 0w30 has the same viscosity as 10w30 at 212 deg. It's the cold viscosity that's different. Is a thinner start up viscosity better or worse for your engine? According to the author it's better.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
I've read the long Oil 101-xx article on the home page several times. If the data presented is correct about viscosity at room temp and at operating temp then wouldn't the 0W oil get to where it needs to be fastest under all conditions at start up? I'm also really fascinated with the idea that 0W (& 5W) causes less wear on the starter, battery, alternator, etc because it's easier to spin and start the engine, as well as the low temp advantage.

What would be an argument against using 0W oil? (out of warranty vehicles)

thanks!


You are pretty much spot on! However according to a Pennzoil rep I spoke with a few years back a 0W-xx oil might not be the best choice in an older car that leaks. Other than that go for it!

 

[virginoil]

So what if a 5w outflows a 0w.

I remember a forum member once said "With todays oils the engine will usually out live the vehicle anyway".

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: JasonBraswell
How about the fact 0W-whatevers will burn more oil in a high mileage engine. I can tell you for a fact in my 97 LC the 10w-40 burns a lot of less oil compared to the 0w-40 per se.

How about the fact that that's probably because of other properties of oil besides its 0w rating?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Here is a link for you, to help you understand viscosity.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/oil_viscosity.htm

The 2nd paragraph states:

The viscosity rating of a motor oil is determined in a laboratory by a Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) test procedure. The viscosity of the oil is measured and given a number, which some people also refer to as the "weight" (thickness) of the oil. The lower the viscosity rating or weight, the thinner the oil. The higher the viscosity rating, the thicker the oil.

Again, 404 relationship not found. 0w is a low-temperature pumpability rating, not a viscosity rating.

5w-20 is thinner than 5w30.
0w-20 is not necessarily thinner than 5w-20; just more pumpable at low temperatures.

The whole rating with both numbers together (5w-20, 0w-20, etc.) is often called a "viscosity grade," but this is a casual term. When you talk about thick vs. thin, you're talking about the big number (i.e. the one without the W).

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Errtt
Is it thinness or is the viscosity, flow
What about oil burners - wouldn't a 0w-xx may not always be best? I know an oil burner is not the best excuse, more in need of repair


If you've got a car that's burning a lot of oil, just dump the cheapest, generic garbage in it that you can find. I had a Vega many years ago that was burning a quart every 100 miles. I'd pull into a gas station and tell the guy "Fill up the oil and check the gas." I ran it on used oil that my dad drained out of his other cars. I never changed the oil in that car until dad and I rebuilt the engine with iron sleeves, then I ran it on Arco Graphite. Oh for the good old days.

 

[jstutz]

Reasons why you wouldn't buy 0w30 practically.

You have an older or high mileage car
you cant buy it in dino so you have to run synthetics
Cost is double that of a 5w30 conventional
In most of the US, it will make little difference to justify the cost.
volatility is usually worse

These days dino is so good it is really hard to justify a 0w30.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I always thought that on oil with a larger base number (a 10W as opposed to a 0W) meant that less viscosity improvers were used,giving you "more real oil" per se.



I always thought the same thing but then I read that an oil company can sometimes use different basestocks in their 5w30 vs. their 10w30.
In other words they will use Group 1 in the 10w30 while group 2 or 2+ is required in their 5w30. So their 5w30 may be a 'better, oil even though it cost the same.

PS: If given the choice between Mobil 1 5w30 or 0w30 in the NY winter, I'd choose 0W30. I believe it's a better oil and that it probably uses more PAO basestock.

 

[A_Harman]

[/quote]
0w is a low-temperature pumpability rating, not a viscosity rating.

[/quote]

That's an oversimplification. There are two tests that an oil must pass to get a given w-rating; Cold Cranking Simulator and Pumpability. The SAE J300 requirements list maximum allowable viscosities for each, but at different temperatures depending on the w-number being tested for.

0w = 6200mPa*s @ -35C for CCS, and 60,000mPa*s @ -40C for Pumpability
5w = 6600 @ -30C, and 60,000 @-35C
10w = 7000 @ -25C, and 60,000 @ -30C
15w = 7000 @ -20C, and 60,000 @ -25C
20w = 9500 @ -15C, and 60,000 @ -20C
25w = 13,000 @ -10C, and 60,000 @ -15C

The lower the viscosity, the easier the oil is to pump at winter temperatures, and the lower the stress on the oil pump drive, starter, and battery. Notice the big jump in allowable viscosity between 15w and 20w; 7000 to 9500. I would think twice about putting a 20w oil in my engine if temperatures much below freezing are expected.

 

[FZ1]

Interesting.Thanks,Tex.

 

[d00df00d]

A_Harman, you're right, and of course that was a simplification. The point is twofold:


1. Terms like "thick" or "thin" are not good descriptors when it comes to W ratings. An oil that is thick at most temps could still achieve a low W rating, whereas an oil that is thin at most temps might not.

2. The term "viscosity" is very general. The W number refers specifically to certain conditions of temperature and shear. They are not the same, and should not be confused.


I think we probably agree on those points, no?

 

[gfh77665]

You need to come to grips that an "0" is thin, period. You can play the semantics game if you want, but its futile to do so.

 

[d00df00d]

Evidently you are either unwilling or unable to do anything more sophisticated than repeat your point and then complain that nobody believes you. I don't think you're in any place to tell me what I need to come to grips with.

But hey, thanks for your apparently sincere concern as to my level of education on this topic. Take care.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
You need to come to grips that an "0" is thin, period. You can play the semantics game if you want, but its futile to do so.


Going deeper into the semantics game, it could also be said that 0w oil is thick and water is thin. It's all relative. I think the problem that most people have with 0w-rated oil is the connotation that "ZERO" has, as in nothing. But it's not nothing. If you study the way that SAE J300 rates different viscosities, it's just a designation for a lower range of the scale. They could have just as well classed the viscosity ranges as 1, 2, 3, etc.

 

[shpankey]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
You need to come to grips that an "0" is thin, period. You can play the semantics game if you want, but its futile to do so.

The term "thin" is relative. Thin compared to what and when is the question you have to ask and answer before applying it.

I would also have you look at the viscosities at all temps of say German Castrol 0w30 and compare it to a 5w30 like Valvoline or Pennzoil. Then you answer which one is "thin". You will realize my question will have to include "at what temperature" and you'll be well on your way to getting it.

Oh and trust me, dood knows way more than most of us here.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: shpankey
You will realize my question will have to include "at what temperature" and you'll be well on your way to getting it.

Oh and trust me, dood knows way more than most of us here.

BINGO!!!

A 0w30 oil will be both thinner when cold and thicker when hot than say a 5W-20 at engine operating temps... No the 0w30 doesn't thicken at operating temp, it just thins less...

 

[electrolover]

Oil type.. Thickness at 75 F ..Thickness at 212 F (For mineral based oils)

Straight 30..........250....................10
10W-30...............100....................10
0W-30.................40.....................10

i pulled that from 101. i bet there is more in the voa section to compare a 20w. but one thing i do know is if your comparing thickness by the grade rating once that second number changes its apples and oranges. a list of grades and thickness at temps would settle this arguement

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
Oil type.. Thickness at 75 F ..Thickness at 212 F (For mineral based oils)

Straight 30..........250....................10
10W-30...............100....................10
0W-30.................40.....................10

i pulled that from 101. i bet there is more in the voa section to compare a 20w. but one thing i do know is if your comparing thickness by the grade rating once that second number changes its apples and oranges. a list of grades and thickness at temps would settle this arguement

The point of that chart is simply to show that a 0w-30, a 10w30, and a straight SAE 30 are all in the same ballpark at 100º C; but, as you cool them down, an SAE 30 typically will thicken up more than a 10w30, which typically will thicken up faster than the 0w-30. The actual numbers are only examples to illustrate the difference.

Moreover, it doesn't always turn out that way. German Castrol is a famous example of a 0w30 that is thicker at most temperatures than many 5w30s. Again, every oil is different.

The reason for all of this is that the two halves of the viscosity rating mean different things. They're not just different temperatures; they're different measurements. The big number (20, 30, 40, etc.) represents kinematic viscosity. This is a low-shear measurement; it shows how much resistance the oil provides when it's not being pushed around very hard. By contrast, the measurements that go into the W rating involve greater degrees of shearing. They show how much resistance the oil provides when a lot of force is acting on it (e.g. in the oil pump, certain bearings, etc.). You can't calculate one from the other without knowing the chemical composition of whatever oil you're looking at; it'll be different for every oil.