WHY would Toyota say to use VACUUM to ATF Level?

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Oh, I bet one of the dozens of fellas here with experience on it needing to be changed will chime in...

Here's some quotes from members who I trust in the meantime..

"Still the fact that Lexus calls this fluid "lifetime" is a scam and here's why...in Canada the very same car is recommended to have the transmission fluid changed at 60k miles!!"

"I have found WS to be exceedingly "mediocre" -not per se "bad" but in no way is it good nor is it capable of what Toyota says it is.

" I would always change the FF of an AT by 30k maximum. Ideally I'd want mine changed twice by then." - Posted by 901 Memphis with 6,600 posts

"Latest example was it shearing badly after 58k miles in mildly road-used late model 4runner, so badly it slipped on steeper hills once warm. After 58k from a dealer flush. Swapped to MaxLife and no problems anymore.

WS is overpriced, oversold, and underperforming."


"And I read somewhere that in the middle east they change it every 50k."


"i personally don't like how the WS has low flash point and shears down." - A member with over 5,000 posts since 2003 on BITOG


"WS shears badly in general and this is one of the worst applications for it."

"Sure, it's "lifetime" transmission fluid. When it's done, your transmission is done... and that's the lifetime of your transmission."

"WS is not a great performing ATF. Change it fully or partially regularly if vehicle is a keeper."
 
This whole post is a lot of nothing. The whole vacuum contraption is simply a tool the dealer can use to check the ATF level when a trans is hot and at full operating temperature.

Otherwise they have to bring the car in the night before and check it at 114F which is barely warm. I have been doing cooler line flushes every 50k on these same transmissions on 4 separate Toyotas and never a problem and once you flush them regularly they shift like new at 200k. All you need is a case of WS for $90 and a crush washer and an IR thermometer.

My Lexus dealer has you bring the car in the evening before and they give you a loaner. The drip tube in the pan drain still works fine you just have to level the car (measure level on the trans pan surface)

So far I have been flushing since 2008 with over 370,000 accumulated miles and not a hiccup. The other Toyotas with a dip stick I just use a motive fluid extractor and change out 4 quarts of WS every year. No problem

You guys overreact like a bunch of 90 year old women
 
BTW, WS fluid is not bad...the first drian at 50k on the 4 cars I drain comes out dirty. Subsequent changes come out a little dark but not bad. I would estimate the first 50k change gets out all of the break in material and the trans sheds very little after that.

I am thinking of increasing my ATF OCI to 75k or doing a flush at 50k and 100k and then just running the last fill to 200k when I trade in.

But I would not run WS over 100k.
 
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Originally Posted By: Doog
The other Toyotas with a dip stick I just use a motive fluid extractor and change out 4 quarts of WS every year. No problem


Point well made. No dipstick = lower maintenance rate = more issues and less reliable used cars on the market.

And it also results in dealer techs telling me that they check its level at 176F (incorrectly) versus the 113F they should be doing it at.
 
Originally Posted By: SumpChump
Originally Posted By: Doog
The other Toyotas with a dip stick I just use a motive fluid extractor and change out 4 quarts of WS every year. No problem


Point well made. No dipstick = lower maintenance rate = more issues and less reliable used cars on the market.

And it also results in dealer techs telling me that they check its level at 176F (incorrectly) versus the 113F they should be doing it at.

Your post contradicts itself. Think about it - when you make it difficult for independent techs and owners to check the fluid level, they are less likely to service the unit incorrectly and cause issues.

As shown by your example, many techs do not service these units properly -- in a lot of those situations, they were really doing the owner a disservice.

Based on what I've seen in the field and in a shop environment, I firmly believe that the fill for life fluids and designs are a step in the right direction for longevity of transmissions. Put in a good enough fluid to begin with that will get the transmission to last 150-200k (thru the term of the first ownership), and you'll have a very happy customer base.
 
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: SumpChump
Originally Posted By: Doog
The other Toyotas with a dip stick I just use a motive fluid extractor and change out 4 quarts of WS every year. No problem


Point well made. No dipstick = lower maintenance rate = more issues and less reliable used cars on the market.

And it also results in dealer techs telling me that they check its level at 176F (incorrectly) versus the 113F they should be doing it at.

Your post contradicts itself. Think about it - when you make it difficult for independent techs and owners to check the fluid level, they are less likely to service the unit incorrectly and cause issues.

As shown by your example, many techs do not service these units properly -- in a lot of those situations, they were really doing the owner a disservice.

Based on what I've seen in the field and in a shop environment, I firmly believe that the fill for life fluids and designs are a step in the right direction for longevity of transmissions. Put in a good enough fluid to begin with that will get the transmission to last 150-200k (thru the term of the first ownership), and you'll have a very happy customer base.



Sorry it didn't come across clearly via the typed word. I think we are in total agreement. I meant it to read that the dipstick would have been such an easier way for Toyota to go. They falsely thought that not having one would protect the tranny from silly customers (and aftermarket shops) when in actuality Toyota made things so bizarre and convoluted that their own dealer techs aren't doing in right. That's the ultimate irony. And the consumer looses. Especially consumers with these Camry's with their shuddering Torque Converters necessitating fluid changes to get the accelerated wear out of the tranny. We don't even have the option of "letting it go till 100k", that is...if we ant to own the car for more than 70k-100k.
 
the whole vacuum procedure is probably done by some dept at toyota who had to produce something to justify their existence. it doesn't have to be right, they don't even have to understand it.

you guys should look at how auto transmissions work in general. contrary to the b.s. of how they are the most complicated device ever devised today, they are not and once you understand the handful of systems that are in an auto trans then it gets quite simple. and then you can understand how the fear of overfilling is very overrated.
much like the false rationalization of if engine oil overfilled in a motor causes high oil pressure.
 
Question: Can you perform a basic drain and fill with this type of trans?

I ask because I'm planning on buying a new 4Runner. On my son's Yaris we've been doing 30,000 mile drain/fills. This car has a dipstick. It's quicker than an oil change and only costs 3 qts of WS and a crush washer. I'd like to do the same with the 4Runner.

Thanks...
 
Originally Posted By: Foch

Question: Can you perform a basic drain and fill with this type of trans?

I ask because I'm planning on buying a new 4Runner. On my son's Yaris we've been doing 30,000 mile drain/fills. This car has a dipstick. It's quicker than an oil change and only costs 3 qts of WS and a crush washer. I'd like to do the same with the 4Runner.

Thanks...


No the 4 Runner has a sealed trans. But My dealer would do mine for $240 for a complete flush on their machine. If you do that at 30,000 then every 60,000 you'll be fine.
 
Originally Posted By: Foch

Question: Can you perform a basic drain and fill with this type of trans?


Yes, sure you can. It's just a little bit slower and a tad messier.

You can use a fluid transfer pump screwed into the container, but I've found that tedious and tiring. Better solution is to get a long 8' or so length of clear tubing. Insert it into the fill hole, then run it up the side of the car and zip-tie it to the rear-view mirror, with a funnel inserted in the upper end. Then slowly pour the fluid in. Gravity-fill people call it. It's easier with two people as then someone underneath can wait until the fill hole starts to overflow. You'll have some fluid still in the tubing; you can quickly pull it out of the tranny and stick the it into a spent bottle and recover it without too much mess. You can do this solo, too, but extra eyes and hands help. Zip tie the tube to a frame support near the fill hole if it's one person - it can work out if you are up top filling.

I helped a neighbor with a 4runner do this a few months ago. It is clearly not as convenient as a normal dip stick/fill tube, but it's not unbearable given its only every 30k miles. It's better than either of the pumps I bought to fit quart or gallon fluid containers and have used in the past.

A lot of GM transmission don't have a drain plug - so on those a lot of owners pull the pan, or pull the pan and install a drain plug. At least all the Toyota/Lexus ones I've seen still have a drain plug.

The 4runner has an ATF cooler and you can break the return line at the radiator and easily do a full flush yourself if you want using this same method.
 
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Originally Posted By: Doog
This whole post is a lot of nothing.

If vehicle transmissions weren't leaving dealers underfilled and failing, I might agree with that.
Originally Posted By: Doog
The whole vacuum contraption is simply a tool the dealer can use to check the ATF level when a trans is hot and at full operating temperature.

It's only "a tool" (and procedure) they can use IF THEY KNOW ABOUT IT AND USE IT.
Originally Posted By: Doog
You guys overreact like a bunch of 90 year old women

This IS Bitog, but a poor analogy. My GrandMother (God rest her soul) was 97 almost 98 and unflappable at all times.
Originally Posted By: SumpChump
Here's some quotes from members who I trust in the meantime..
"Sure, it's "lifetime" transmission fluid. When it's done, your transmission is done... and that's the lifetime of your transmission."

That was me! Thanks for the trust.
smile.gif


Here's a manual procedure, for better or for worse, I haven't tried it because I don't have this issue on my dipstick and drain plug equipped 10th gen Corolla.
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/104-5t...flush-pics.html
 
Our old 97 Jetta had a internal fluid level tube and was considered a sealed unit. Didn't have a vag comm to read trans temp so I used a thermo gun to read pan temp. Not the ideal way to read the temp but it got me pretty close.
 
What a frigin nightmare some of this maintenance is getting to be on cars(in general). I don't have as nasty a one as this (yet) but am getting into the mode of drain-measure-refill on the cars. On those that come with a pan, but no drain plug, sourcing an aftermarket (Dorman, ect) with a plug or adding one to the OE pan. Change out the OE filter and then mostly just fluid R+R going forward. One more area that makes it harder and harder-the word 'shadetree' will soon be lost!
 
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: Doog
This whole post is a lot of nothing.

If vehicle transmissions weren't leaving dealers underfilled and failing, I might agree with that.
Originally Posted By: Doog
The whole vacuum contraption is simply a tool the dealer can use to check the ATF level when a trans is hot and at full operating temperature.

It's only "a tool" (and procedure) they can use IF THEY KNOW ABOUT IT AND USE IT.
Originally Posted By: Doog
You guys overreact like a bunch of 90 year old women

This IS Bitog, but a poor analogy. My GrandMother (God rest her soul) was 97 almost 98 and unflappable at all times.
Originally Posted By: SumpChump
Here's some quotes from members who I trust in the meantime..
"Sure, it's "lifetime" transmission fluid. When it's done, your transmission is done... and that's the lifetime of your transmission."

That was me! Thanks for the trust.
smile.gif


Here's a manual procedure, for better or for worse, I haven't tried it because I don't have this issue on my dipstick and drain plug equipped 10th gen Corolla.
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/104-5t...flush-pics.html


Very few toyota transmissions are failing....
crazy2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
What's wrong with draining the factory fill and putting in the exact same amount? Factory approved procedures are not the only way things can be done.


I was contemplating that. That would be awesome.

But... and here comes the "ugh!" part...... I've met several members unfortunately who did the measurement of what came out and then did the procedure for fill level and the tranny was under filled from factory.
 
Shows that only 1 out of 10 is an actually Dealership, and not
the typical $tealership.

ONLY ONE PLACE OUT OF TEN KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

That is a horrible ratio.
 
Oh the mythical Toyota reliability.....they have spent tons of money keeping their issues under the rug since '02 and the sheep keep coming back for more. Meanwhile brands with proven reliability are overlooked based on perception. Hope these loyal Toyota folks get burned in the [censored].

Let's see

Sludging - ~3.5 million cars
Unintended accleration - ~3.8 million cars
1ZZ-FE oil burning (Celica and high volume Corolla)
2AZ-FE oil burning (High volume Camry & Rav-4)
2AZ-FE headgaskets

Are Toyota owners delusional? Toyota has been making complete junk since '01-02. VW was raked over the coals for having 2-3 years worth of Jetta's burning quarts of oil every 1,000 miles, Toyota sells hundreds of thousands more Camry's with the same problem and they are held up on this reliability pedestal? Not to mention how many 2.4 Camry's blew out their headgaskets due to headbolt design flaws. I will take electrical problems in a VW any day over a under-100k engine or tranny rebuild in a Camry.
 
Lifetime trans fluid is a joke. WS is okay but not great. And my 06 Scion uses Type IV and still have a lifetime fill sticker on the dipstick for its 4 speed Aisin trans. I am at 110k on the odometer and I do a fluid change every 30k miles and a filter change every other time. I have seen the used fluid analysis on this site for Type IV and dont trust it. I think it is a ploy to make sure you buy a new disposable car sooner.
 
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