WHY would Toyota say to use VACUUM to ATF Level?

[SumpChump]

RAND.....LOL!

It was my buddy, a salesman, who puts nearly 70k a year on his Camry that woke me to these issues. Now it's just sad seeing Toyota flop and flounder on their own shoestrings on this issues, combine that with the torque converter shudder, which makes changing the ATF a VERY good idea.... and Toyota's embarrassment.

I may call national to see what they say about their techs saying the have no idea about it.

 

[SumpChump]

Originally Posted By: MalfunctionProne
What cars are having a U760E?


Its the 6 speed auto in most every Camry, Rav 4 I believe and others.... there's a lot of them. And they are not being maintained under the guise of "lifetime fluid". There will be a time lag on the consequences of this difficult to maintain transmission but that wont be seen for about 10 years until the used market has next to nothing on hand for usable transmissions in these cars.

 

[SumpChump]

Erase

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: SumpChump
Originally Posted By: MalfunctionProne
Originally Posted By: SumpChump
[size:14pt]
Originally Posted By: KGMtech

ZF has temperature settings for checking the level, drip rates for confirmation of level. However, no vacuum required.

Thanks for the comment.. It goes to show how odd this vacuum thing is that Toyota is doing.
The original procedure has no vacuum being used. LINK >>>>>

And the original process was long enough already.


The vacuum being applied is really bizarre. especially since the earths atmosphere is at 15psi and this applies, in the opposing direction, 3 psi of vacuum through a side fill port while you have the bottom drain plug open to atmosphere anyhow.

I got a laugh out of their equipment and essential tool list....to check the ATF! LOL


How is this hanging from a transmission pan BETTER than having an F*ing dipstick Toyota!!? LOL



Isn't 1 "atmosphere" 14.2psi?
And 3 bar = 1 "atmosphere?"


I did an estimate on on the atmospheric pressure and I think that 10-20Kpa is 3psi.


You can google this stuff, guys...

At sea level, 1 atmosphere = 14.7 psi = ~ 100kPa = 0 psig (the 'g' standing for gage, which measures pressure above atmospheric pressure.)

3 psi (not psig) is less than atmospheric, i.e., a vacuum. Every gage I work with is in either inches of mercury or water, including the duplex gages that measure pressure in psig on the other side of the scale.

//

With all of that said, it really sounds like you're getting upset over nothing. I am NOT a believer that lifetime fluids are really good for the lifetime of the vehicle, and that performance and protection will degrade over time, to include possible failure at higher mileage, depending on the service and other factors (e.g., manufacturing process, such as differing tolerances and entrance of contaminants.)

Based on the fact that I know many people who drive their dip-stick-equiped AT's to high mileage without even thinking about the oil, you may be over-reacting to this a little bit. I do test things for a living, so I'm biased when I say that this does not look very complicated to do.

Besides, who did you talk to about doing the job, the service writer? Service writers don't always know a lot about cars, and some know very little. I wonder if the tech's themselves would be able to figure it out.

Finally, why was the new method developed? Have people been having problems, failures as a result of the previous method?

*I removed links and pics from the quote...

 

[SumpChump]

UPDATE: SCARY STUFF, the dealers have little clue what they are doing.

Since this procedure to apply vacuum of 3psi to the fill plug and have a rube Goldberg gizmo hanging from the drain plug started in FEB of 2013....

I'm going to do a "Canvass" and call dealers across the country to get a "sample" of what any given customer would get actually performed at a Toyota dealer. I am going to ask to speak to a tech who is certified to do transmission replacement and fills. I specifically mention the vacuum procedure and SST (special service tool).

Here's my results so far. Makes me CRINGE.

Dealer #1 Springfield Ill. - "Yeah on those sealed units we use the overflow tube at temperature, no vacuum or other device... never heard of it."

Dealer #2 Peoria Ill - "Those are sealed and we don't reccommend a change of fluid unless the transmission has had a failure and we have to do it."

Dealer #3 Scottsdale AZ - "We have a machine that does it with the push of one button." I then reiterated that I wasn't talking about a flush, rather a fluid level set procedure. His reply, "I told you that the machine does it on its own."

Dealer #4 Joplin , MO - "Some guys here use the vacuum procedure or else you might have a few extra drips com out the overflow tube. "but I'm not sure anything was wrong with the old procedure."

Dealer #5 - Haines City , FL - "Nooo, we just use the original instructions from 2011 or so "simple-not so simple"....overflow tube procedure, the original method. We don't even have on hand the Special Service Tools for that vacuum procedure from the 2013 TSB. Pfft!"

TOYOTA National: She wouldn't give me a tech team. She said that the dealer was the one who knows the procedures. I explained that the dealers are not in agreement on the procedure either using the original factory designed plastic fill level "drip tube" that comes installed in the ATF pan versus the "newer" Feb of 2013 Rube Goldberg vacuum draw and big metal tube type gizmo. She repeated that the dealer knows and became agitated. The New Jersey really came out in her voice when I told her there was conflicting statements on procedure.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

You have far too much time on your hands.

If it gets your panties in that much of a twist, just don't buy a Toyota. Simple enough, problem solved.

 

[SumpChump]

Just trying to find out the truth of the matter. Nothing fancy really. Well, the procedure is fancy... but... well... ya know what I mean.

 

[SumpChump]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool


Based on the fact that I know many people who drive their dip-stick-equiped AT's to high mileage without even thinking about the oil

Finally, why was the new method developed? Have people been having problems, failures as a result of the previous method?



This tranny has shudder problems and one of the previous recommendations from Toyota is to change the fluid, thus making this whole process... necessary.

Failures have been occurring apparently because the dealers a taking in cars "hot" at 190F and doing , if at all, the overflow procedure from the factory manual that says to do it at 113F. Then they are under filled and fail.

 

[meep]

based on the procedure, it looks like they pull a vacuum to purge any air bubbles from the procedure out of the fluid. the lower ambient pressure will help coax bubbles out before starting the vehicle.

 

[SumpChump]

Originally Posted By: meep
based on the procedure, it looks like they pull a vacuum to purge any air bubbles from the procedure out of the fluid. the lower ambient pressure will help coax bubbles out before starting the vehicle.


Hmm, so if I'm getting this correctly, the higher temps of this new Rube Goldberg procedure will hold more bubbles, thus requiring the suction of sorts,and the lower temps of the older procedure hold fewer bubbles.

 

[SumpChump]

UPDATE:

Since this procedure to apply vacuum of 3psi to the fill plug and have a rube Goldberg gizmo hanging from the drain plug started in FEB of 2013....

I'm going to do a "Canvass" and call dealers across the country to get a "sample" of what any given customer would get actually performed at a Toyota dealer. I am going to ask to speak to a tech who is certified to do transmission replacement and fills. I specifically mention the vacuum procedure and SST (special service tool).

Here's my results so far. Makes me CRINGE.

Dealer #1 Springfield Ill. - "Yeah on those sealed units we use the overflow tube at temperature, no vacuum or other device... never heard of it."

Dealer #2 Peoria Ill - "Those are sealed and we don't reccommend a change of fluid unless the transmission has had a failure and we have to do it."

Dealer #3 Scottsdale AZ - "We have a machine that does it with the push of one button." I then reiterated that I wasn't talking about a flush, rather a fluid level set procedure. His reply, "I told you that the machine does it on its own."

Dealer #4 Joplin , MO - "Some guys here use the vacuum procedure or else you might have a few extra drips com out the overflow tube. "but I'm not sure anything was wrong with the old procedure."

Dealer #5 - Haines City , FL - "Nooo, we just use the original instructions from 2011 or so "simple-not so simple"....overflow tube procedure, the original method. We don't even have on hand the Special Service Tools for that vacuum procedure from the 2013 TSB. Pfft!"

TOYOTA National: She wouldn't give me a tech team. She said that the dealer was the one who knows the procedures. I explained that the dealers are not in agreement on the procedure either using the original factory designed plastic fill level "drip tube" that comes installed in the ATF pan versus the "newer" Feb of 2013 Rube Goldberg vacuum draw and big metal tube type gizmo. She repeated that the dealer knows and became agitated. The New Jersey really came out in her voice when I told her there was conflicting statements on procedure.

Dealer #6 - Eugene, OR - "We use the scan tool method, we don't hang any big stuff on the car, LOL" (implying the original factory method of drizzle out the plastic overflow tube)

Dealer #7 - Mankato, MN - "LOL, we just take the temp up to 176 (which is not in accordance with EITHER of Toyota's written directions) and let her overflow out the tube, the original way.

Dealer #8 - Iowa City, IA - "The only one we use is the more complex device (Rube Goldberg newer method)... I think we do it because its easier than the old way but its a lot more gear to use"


Dealer #9 - Greely, CO - THIS DUDE KNEW WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT - He says, "We use BOTH methods actually... and us techs like the older method of course because no use of the SST (Rube Goldberg device). If a car is cool and we can get it in the bay below 113F trans temps, then we use the original method via the plastic overflow tube built into the pan, if it's hot when it rolls in we use the big device because that allows for a higher temp when we do the job. It applies a vacuum of sorts so that it doesn't overflow out the factory plastic overflow tube which is designed for a lower temp and less expanded fluid. The vacuum temporarily holds back the fluid (into the filter and passages) and allows us to insert the larger device with the taller overflow tube quickly for use with the more expanded (hotter)fluid. So in total the newer procedure is because dealers were putting cars through too quickly and were sending them out under filled."

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: SumpChump
Originally Posted By: gathermewool


Based on the fact that I know many people who drive their dip-stick-equiped AT's to high mileage without even thinking about the oil

Finally, why was the new method developed? Have people been having problems, failures as a result of the previous method?



This tranny has shudder problems and one of the previous recommendations from Toyota is to change the fluid, thus making this whole process... necessary.

Failures have been occurring apparently because the dealers a taking in cars "hot" at 190F and doing , if at all, the overflow procedure from the factory manual that says to do it at 113F. Then they are under filled and fail.


If that's the case, then you win, that's dumb.

 

[Trav]

Its getting crazier all the time with some of these procedures.
I just did a MT that specs locking the shift mechanism, removing the backup light switch, removing a second bolt to get a few drops more fluid out then fill it through the backup light switch and not the fill hole in the side of the case that does have a plug. lol

Funny thing is i did this one long before these revised procedures were conjured up and just drained it and filled through the fill plug. That was 100K ago and its never given a bit of trouble.

 

[Oro_O]

Kudos SumpChump for rounding up some real data. Nice job.

I ran into this a few months ago helping a friend who's 4Runner was misbehaving. The WS fluid in it was causing it to slip, and it had been dealer changed ~55k earlier. It did not have the vacuum and heater element, but it had a ridiculously complicated temperature-check system that included opening electronics boxes, shifting in a Rosary-bead pattern, waiting for some Knight's Templar-secret flashing light pattern, then saying three Hail Mary's and sacrificing a lamb.

I printed the whole proceedure out, thought it through, tried to understand what the real goal was - realized it was meaningless - then just filled it, let it run 15 minutes until hot while we had a beer, then let it overflow.

Ridiculous. I've heard more than one person say that the "last great years" for Toyota were c. 2004/5 - am beginning to believe them. That's roughly when the WS fiasco started, Land Cruisers stopped being built by ARACO and quality fell off, etc. I'm going to add a 2004 Lexus LS430 to the stable this year, but otherwise avoid things from the last decade until some changes occur to get back to the prior level of engineering quality.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: SumpChump quoting dealer tech
"If a car is cool and we can get it in the bay below 113F trans temps, then we use the original method via the plastic overflow tube built into the pan..."

It's sounding to me as though Toyota's engineers pulled a bonehead maneuver when they originally spec'ed the low-temp fluid change.

My thinking is that techs end up working on vastly more HOT cars than they do COLD. And now Toyota is having to give the dealerships a special tool to compensate for Toyota's mistake and allow dealers to work on cars that come in the way they always have...HOT.

Hopefully Toyota redesigns the transmission to allow for what it appears they should have allowed for in the first place.

 

[SumpChump]

Originally Posted By: Or
Kudos SumpChump for rounding up some real data. Nice job.

I ran into this a few months ago helping a friend who's 4Runner was misbehaving. The WS fluid in it was causing it to slip, and it had been dealer changed ~55k earlier. It did not have the vacuum and heater element, but it had a ridiculously complicated temperature-check system that included opening electronics boxes, shifting in a Rosary-bead pattern, waiting for some Knight's Templar-secret flashing light pattern.


Thank You! It too some time but I finally got to someone who KNEW something.

I love your description above. That's the guy feeling one gets when actually at the car an thinking it through. Craziness! And my Toyota call was very disappointing.

 

[SumpChump]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: SumpChump quoting dealer tech
"If a car is cool and we can get it in the bay below 113F trans temps, then we use the original method via the plastic overflow tube built into the pan..."

It's sounding to me as though Toyota's engineers pulled a bonehead maneuver when they originally spec'ed the low-temp fluid change.

My thinking is that techs end up working on vastly more HOT cars than they do COLD. And now Toyota is having to give the dealerships a special tool to compensate for Toyota's mistake and allow dealers to work on cars that come in the way they always have...HOT.

Hopefully Toyota redesigns the transmission to allow for what it appears they should have allowed for in the first place.


I woulda thought they'd just give the dealer a longer plastic over flow tube for the higher temp. , something like a "blue tube" versus the lower temp "orange tube" or some lil system like that.

I think the poorly specs and built torque converter is an even bigger issue.

Once he knew that I wasn't Dom DeLouise ...the Colorado tech said that...and I quote... He said,"Once you've had a shudder problem for a short while you basically WILL have the torque converter blow. The software update for the torque converter lockup selenoid characteristics is a patch that will save some torque converters but the shuddering ones are likely dead men walking".

He sounded like they'd have ALOT gutting transmissions from 2011-2014 in their careers soon.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: SumpChump
He sounded like they'd have ALOT gutting transmissions from 2011-2014 in their careers soon.

I guess the lesson here is: Don't get your ATF changed, or else you may wreck your tranny.

Our RAV4 has about 26,000 miles on it now, so the ATF won't need replacing soon. I'm going to discuss this with my dealer at the next warranty service, and see what they say.

 

[SumpChump]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
I guess the lesson here is: Don't get your ATF changed, or else you may wreck your tranny.

Our RAV4 has about 26,000 miles on it now, so the ATF won't need replacing soon. I'm going to discuss this with my dealer at the next warranty service, and see what they say.


Pretty sand lesson hey, and you're on the right track... BUT... WS fluid is shown to loose it additive pack by 30k and is a medium performer overall. Also Our Camry's have a torque converter shudder that needs fluid changes to crutch them up healthy and clean out the soiling from the clutch packs.

A real "Rock and a Hard Place" situation. Almost a lemon law deal. So I'd summarize the lesson is to see if the technicians actually USE the correct procedure. Some of my calls made me very leery of the dealers and their accuracy. Problem is... soo many don't let you talk to the actual technician or they become defensive the moment that one approaches them with some knowledge.

Toyota left us high and dry. Just for a dipstick omitted to supposedly "prevent tampering by dumb owners". Ironic.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: SumpChump
WS fluid is shown to loose it additive pack by 30k and is a medium performer overall.


I'll bite, do you have/did you see actual evidence of that beyond the usual hearsay (ie "massive collapse from heat" as stated on the other recent thread)?