Why Toyota and Honda have no oil specs?

[MalibuRam65]

I like how you always say "it's been explained to you".
I'm not anti-amsoil I'm anti dexos.
When money is no object Amsoil is the best. It will last longer and can be ran harder than just about any equivalent product offered by their competition.
How's that for being "anti-amsoil"?
You clearly have me confused with someone else.

HPL -also great oil if money is no object

 

[TomYoung]

Look, I already hate this topic. You can see how many people here want to run a Dexos oil because it’s “better” and they don’t drive a GM car.

You can look at the shelf space at an autozone or Walmart. It’s Dexos approved oils. Even though GM is only ~16% of the market share in the U.S.

We can have the entire conversation of do you actually need the Dexos approval or not. We can have the conversation of how the Dexos approvals work. We can have the conversation of what the Dexos approvals cost. Etc.

At the end of the day, if GM actually wanted tighter specs, they could work through the API if they wanted to. But they don’t, because it becomes beneficial for them to do it independently. If you feel like it’s important for you, then use it. This thread is particularly about Honda and Toyota. You do not need to run a Dexos approved product in those engines, end of story. But if you, feel like it’s a better product, then do it. Arguing nuances, verbiage, marketing, etc. to me, is splitting hairs and a waste of time. That’s why I don’t like getting involved in PCEO threads. Thus, my opening statement of thanks, I already hate this thread.

A little reactionary perhaps? If you are not trying to meet a specific Euro standard and you are looking for a good 0W20, or 5W30 for your regular Japanese or American daily driver, Dexos is a solid, basic standard that will serve you well, and you will not have oil-related problems. If you hate GM because they have marketed and promoted this brand so well, know that they have blown it on their automobiles. The recent article in Fortune underscores their cluelessness with the CEO's solitary focus on electric vehicles, which have hit a plateau, like to ignite underwater, and have zero resale value.

 

[Foxtrot08]

A little reactionary perhaps? If you are not trying to meet a specific Euro standard and you are looking for a good 0W20, or 5W30 for your regular Japanese or American daily driver, Dexos is a solid, basic standard that will serve you well, and you will not have oil-related problems. If you hate GM because they have marketed and promoted this brand so well, know that they have blown it on their automobiles. The recent article in Fortune underscores their cluelessness with the CEO's solitary focus on electric vehicles, which have hit a plateau, like to ignite underwater, and have zero resale value.

I made my case at the end. We already have a spec called SP. Why not just work and strengthen that spec that everyone already agreed on?

Money.

 

[TomYoung]

I made my case at the end. We already have a spec called SP. Why not just work and strengthen that spec that everyone already agreed on?

Money.

Dude, the market has spoken. Dexos is it. That's what you hate, right?

 

[kschachn]

What I was saying say was amsoil doesn't want to get a dexos cert because amsoil doesn't want to give up their formula to dexos (gm). Because who knows who has access to that information. If anyone wanted to steal amsoils formula with a lab test, then why don't they?
You really be doing some mental gymnastics to think I said amsoil has to steal someone else's formula to get a dexos cert. Go dram farm somewhere else.

So you are saying that Amsoil produces their own additive packages?

 

[Foxtrot08]

Dude, the market has spoken. Dexos is it. That's what you hate, right?

No, I particularly hate the misinformation going around about what Dexos is. And how it’s uniquely superior in some way. I also hate the general attitudes towards non-Dexos products. And how, people think they know the industry and clearly spout misinformation.

That’s, why I stay out of PCMO threads. The whole Dexos saga, just puts a nice little bow on it, as it generally brings out the best of the worse takes.

It’s pretty fun.

 

[oil pan 4]

HPL -also great oil if money is no object

Yeah I'm definitely running hpl 30wt engine cleaner oil in my sludged up Dodge Dakota.
For 4 reasons:
It's not terribly expensive, even with shipping.
To use it I simply dump in a quart of hpl 30wt engine cleaner. I'll dump it in a few weeks before I change the oil.
My truck will probably be a quart low by next spring, so that works out pretty good.
They still make it and I can get it.

I don't run hpl or amsoil in my wife's car because it's got bad fuel dilution and I would just be wasting it.

Once I get the sludge cleared up in my dodge Dakota I'll run 100% amsoil or hpl in it all year.

 

[oil pan 4]

So you are saying that Amsoil produces their own additive packages?

Probably not since as far as I know only like 4 places make oil additives and I don't think any of them are called amsoil.

 

[tolian21]

Dexos gen3 is a higher standard than API SP. however, just because oil does not have dexos gen3 does not mean its not up to dexos gen3 standards. It could be licensing cost, or it could be that it does not meet dexos gen3 standards, you will never know. However, when oil has dexos gen3 approval you do know that it meets the higher standard.

 

[kschachn]

Probably not since as far as I know only like 4 places make oil additives and I don't think any of them are called amsoil.

So it’s not a secret then. And the reason they don’t apply for a dexos license isn’t because they are afraid of industrial espionage.

 

[oil pan 4]

So it’s not a secret then. And the reason they don’t apply for a dexos license isn’t because they are afraid of industrial espionage.

Could be it. Or maybe they think dexos is stupid and a waste of time and money.
You say industrial espionage isn't any of the reason, then they should have no problem making a tube video on exactly how they formulated their oils, if a lab test reveals all possible secrets and there really are no secrets.
When looking for a PCMO, the dexos cert doesn't even make my list of things to look for, I don't avoid it either. Just doesn't matter to me.

 

[mitsuman47]

Dexos gen3 is a higher standard than API SP. …..
However, when oil has dexos gen3 approval you do know that it meets the higher standard.

How do we know this? Honest question, as I haven’t been able to find documentation of the requirements for an oil to meet Dexos, and how that compares to SP.

 

[oil pan 4]

Dexos gen3 is a higher standard than API SP. however, just because oil does not have dexos gen3 does not mean its not up to dexos gen3 standards. It could be licensing cost, or it could be that it does not meet dexos gen3 standards, you will never know. However, when oil has dexos gen3 approval you do know that it meets the higher standard.

The cost isn't that much. Less than $2,000 thousand dollars for each formulation and it has to be redone any time the formulation changes the slightest bit. Apparently they don't do the once cent per 5 gallons royalty any more.

How do we know this? Honest question, as I haven’t been able to find documentation of the requirements for an oil to meet Dexos, and how that compares to SP.

I have looked into this too and I can't find anything. What I think happens is you hand over the exact formulation to dexos with a check and gm looks at it and is like "yeah that sounds good" *stamp*.
Supertech oils are dexos certified so they seem set the bar fairly low.
I looked into to a few years ago, probably more like 10 years ago, wondering "are dexos oils better?" First thing I did was make a list. The list of which oils were and weren't dexos, it didn't seem to make any sense.
In a nutshell looking for a dexos cert will just keep you from dumping straight grade lawnmower or ND air compressor oil into your car.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Which again, proves your lack of knowledge about the industry.

Why would they make two different oils? Do you have any idea of the cost? Okay. Let’s say you want to make a non-Dexos, full synthetic. You have two choices:

1. Use the same additives, the same base oils, that you already use for the Dexos product. And not pay the licensing fee on those gallons.

Or 2. Bring in all new base oils or at least additives, and not pay the licensing fee.

Hmm… which is easier? My point is, GM has brainwashed the consumer thinking they’re getting some magically better product, when it’s going to be the same. Which is why so many blenders are going down the road of not having a GM license on their product. Simply because the cost.

Think you missed my main point again. Regardless of all your other side points, it two oils are exactly "blended the same" as you claimed in post 69, and "One is Dexos approved. One is not", then how are consumers who look at specs and license info on the bottle (or the manufacturer's website) going to know there isn't any difference? - they aren't.

Post up the technical information that proves that an oil that meets dexos isn't any better than an oil that doesn't meet dexos - that's my point. And post the performance reasons why that oil doesn't actually meet the test requirements, not just because someone didn't want to go through the licensing process and cost (which seems pretty minimal these days - ref post 84). Do you have proof that an oil that meets dexos specs isn't giving better performance in the field? I want to see actual test specs/data ... not someones opion, even if they are "in the oil industry". Are they in the actual performance test world of the industry.

More like the end seller - Walmart / autozone / etc. not gouging. Their mark up is typically 50-75% over wholesale cost. Lower wholesale does not represent lower shelf prices. In the slightest bit.

Over all, on the blended side. Depending on who makes it and what their Dexos fee is yearly - between 45 to 80 cents a gallon. Sometimes a little more for smaller blenders.

But you're claiming that many oils are all "blended" exactly the same ... so why would the blending cost be more for an oil blended exactly the same if it was bottled with the dexos license printed on the bottle and the dexos license fee was already paid by the oil brand seller (ref post 84 again)? Seems the brand seller pays the blender, pays the dexos license fee to GM and then they set the wholesale price of the bottled oil accounting for all costs involved to deliever a product to the consumer.

16% market share… includes all the cars GM sells in the U.S. and has sold in the U.S. I think if you actually look at their legacy market share it’s down to 13%.

Google it ... says it was 16.9% for US sales in 2023. Regardless, GM also ranks 4th-5th world wide in sales. Bottom line there are millions of GM vehicles on the roads.

Again, now think of brainwashing, shelf space tankage and SKU management. Then you suddenly see why Dexos is a scam. Of course if you’re going to have limited shelf space at Walmart, you’re going to sell a Dexos product. Of course, GM is going to market Dexos products as “better” than anyone else’s. Because it’s what they do - they market stuff. So of course, buyers with a Honda, Toyota, ford, etc. will come and buy a full synthetic. That is probably going to be Dexos approved. Because it’s easier than educating the consumers, As GM will drop money on marketing.

Thus, once more, why I hate this thread. And generally PCMO chatter. If yall know the business so well, why aren’t you in it?

Seems like you have some kind of deep hate for dexos ... must be a stock holder of non-dexos licensed oil. Never seen anyone get so riled up over an oil spec. Do you get as riled up over the Ford/Motorcraft oil specs?

 

[LDB]

Because oil is oil and if it's a current good brand it's all the same and fine? (Bet that gets a notice or three)

 

[Foxtrot08]

Think you missed my main point again. Regardless of all your other side points, it two oils are exactly "blended the same" as you claimed in post 69, and "One is Dexos approved. One is not", then how are consumers who look at specs and license info on the bottle (or the manufacturer's website) going to know there isn't any difference? - they aren't.

Post up the technical information that proves that an oil that meets dexos isn't any better than an oil that doesn't meet dexos - that's my point. And for the reason that the oil that doesn't can't actually meet the test requirements, not because someone didn't want to go through the licensing process and cost (which seems pretty minimal these days - ref post 84). Do you have proof that an oil that meets dexos specs isn't giving better performance in the field? I want to see actual test specs/data ... not someones opion, even if they are "in the oil industry". Are they in the actual performance test world of the industry.

Thanks, you just proved my entire point. Just because it says Dexos, doesn’t mean it’s better. As I already mentioned, you can game the Dexos spec right now with a group II+ base oil. And it’s in the market.

So you’re going to tell me a D1G3 approved oil, that’s a synthetic blend, is going to be better than a non-D1G3 full synthetic? Hmm… I find that hard to believe. Just because re-refined base oils have a low Noack, doesn’t mean it’s going to perform better.

Also, the licensing costs per year, is substantial. As I already said, it comes down to ~45-85cpg. Maybe more.

And, technical information? For what purpose? All you need to know is if it’s SP and below 13% Noack and it will meet it. I don’t particularly get what “technical” information is relevant to a consumer? It’s PCEO. The box is already small. Change your oil regularly, run oil analysis if you want to extend oil drains and it’s doubtful you’ll ever have an oil related failure.

But you're claiming that many oils are all "blended" exactly the same ... so why would the blending cost be more for an oil blended exactly the same if it was bottled with the dexos license printed on the bottle that license fee was already paid by the oil brand seller (ref post 84 again)?

Because it’s not loaded into the cost per gallon of that product… if we didn’t have to worry about it, have added costs for it, etc. it would be less. This.. is business 101. You’re not going to load the Dexos cost into a non Dexos product…

Google it ... says it was 16.9% for 2023. Regardless, GM also ranks 4th-5th world wide in sales. Bottom line there are millions of GM vehicles on the roads.

Yes, of new vehicles sold. GM is having a good 2024. Their overall market share is between 13.5 and 16.3 depending on how you measure “vehicles on the road.”

Seems like you have some kind of deep hate for dexos ... must be a stock holder of non-dexos licensed oil. Never seen anyone get so riled up over an oil spec.

I have several Dexos licenses, with literally my name on them. Do you?

Yeah, I have a deep hatred of things I find stupid. When it could be solved in a better way for the consumer. C’est la vie. Some things should be simple, but with GM, the 1947193761 euro specs, etc. it becomes dumb. If EV’s can standardize charging ports, and Apple can adapt to USB-C. We should be able to standardize oil specs for viscosity grades. But, if anything they’re making things way more complicated and complex. This is to drive the consumer back to the dealership or, profit off it. Which, to repeat myself, I find that stupid. C’est la vie.

 

[tolian21]

How do we know this? Honest question, as I haven’t been able to find documentation of the requirements for an oil to meet Dexos, and how that compares to SP.

there is a chart that supposedly shows higher requirements than GF-6

 

[ZeeOSix]

I have looked into this too and I can't find anything. What I think happens is you hand over the exact formulation to dexos with a check and gm looks at it and is like "yeah that sounds good" *stamp*.

Sounds like it's more than that ... there are tests specific to meeting the dexos spec. It's not just based on a "formulation" of the oil, it needs to be performance tested too.

 

[Kalle.J]

 

[Kalle.J]

there is a chart that supposedly shows higher requirements than GF-6