Why the Fram love on this board?

[CR94]

^ Yes. That led to some anxious moments waiting ~ 30 seconds or so after starting the engine for oil pressure. It was never a problem except immediately after an oil+filter change. In hindsight, I wonder whether the problem could've been minimized by pouring in the new oil BEFORE installing the new filter (based on a hypothesis that air trapped between the pump and the filter was blocking hydrostatic pressure from refilling the pump).

This phenomenon led to my adopting an unusual habit---kissing oil filters in stores to check the difficulty of sucking air through the ADBV. One brand tended to be considerably more difficult than others.

 

[PimTac]

"....This phenomenon led to my adopting an unusual habit---kissing oil filters in stores to check the difficulty of sucking air through the ADBV. One brand tended to be considerably more difficult than others....."


That is unusual, to say the least. I'm not sure what I would think if I walked in in something like that.

I get your point though.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by CR94
^ Yes. That led to some anxious moments waiting ~ 30 seconds or so after starting the engine for oil pressure. It was never a problem except immediately after an oil+filter change. In hindsight, I wonder whether the problem could've been minimized by pouring in the new oil BEFORE installing the new filter (based on a hypothesis that air trapped between the pump and the filter was blocking hydrostatic pressure from refilling the pump).


That method very well could keep the pump primed, but maybe not if the main galleries are still above the oil level when the filter is removed.

Originally Posted by CR94
This phenomenon led to my adopting an unusual habit---kissing oil filters in stores to check the difficulty of sucking air through the ADBV. One brand tended to be considerably more difficult than others.


Not sure how much vacuum a human can produce with their mouth ... probably not a lot. I have done the "ADBV blow test" however to make sure they don't leak.

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by CR94
^ Yes. That led to some anxious moments waiting ~ 30 seconds or so after starting the engine for oil pressure. It was never a problem except immediately after an oil+filter change. In hindsight, I wonder whether the problem could've been minimized by pouring in the new oil BEFORE installing the new filter (based on a hypothesis that air trapped between the pump and the filter was blocking hydrostatic pressure from refilling the pump).


That method very well could keep the pump primed, but maybe not if the main galleries are still above the oil level when the filter is removed.

Originally Posted by CR94
This phenomenon led to my adopting an unusual habit---kissing oil filters in stores to check the difficulty of sucking air through the ADBV. One brand tended to be considerably more difficult than others.


Not sure how much vacuum a human can produce with their mouth ... probably not a lot. I have done the "ADBV blow test" however to make sure they don't leak.

Making out with oil filters... What next

That needs to be caught on video for sure.

 

[ZeeOSix]

bbhero - yeah, I'm not the only one. The blow test has been discussed a few times in this forum. Someone should make and adapter they can screw into the base to make it easier.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
...
Originally Posted by CR94
This phenomenon led to my adopting an unusual habit---kissing oil filters in stores to check the difficulty of sucking air through the ADBV. One brand tended to be considerably more difficult than others.

Not sure how much vacuum a human can produce with their mouth ... probably not a lot. I have done the "ADBV blow test" however to make sure they don't leak.
10" Hg is possible but uncomfortable for me.
I see the point of your "blow test," but I submit that a suck test is better (assuming more sophisticated instrumentation isn't available). It's more sensitive to slow leaks, and catches unduly sticky ADBVs. I still wonder whether that's a factor in the allegations of "start-up rattle" with Ultras on some engines.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I'm way more concerned about a leaky ADBV (blow test) vs a stuck ADBV (suck test). Any good PD oil pump is going to over power a rubber ADBV like nothing is there. 10 inHg is about 5 PSI. I think humans can suck more than they can blow ...vacuum vs PSI that is.

Engine start-up rattle is pretty much a leaky ADBV IMO.

 

[blupupher]

Originally Posted by spasm3
Originally Posted by blupupher
Seems your criteria for better is metal end caps?
...


I agree the lower end fram has improved, with the adv. But yes I won't run a filter without metal endcaps, so that's my measure of better. It really does not matter anyway as i run the fram ultra.

I would run an orange can over a purolator, but thats all in theory as i won't run either one. If i could not get an ultra i'd run a napa gold or platinum.


OK, gotcha'.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
I'm way more concerned about a leaky ADBV (blow test) vs a stuck ADBV (suck test). ... 10 inHg is about 5 PSI. I think humans can suck more than they can blow ...vacuum vs PSI that is. ...
Engine start-up rattle is pretty much a leaky ADBV IMO.
A "suck test" will detect slow leakers more sensitively than a blow test. Also limp ADBVs that are close to leaking even when new. Yes, we can suck a much greater pressure differential than we can blow, 'tho checking oil filters should not tax either limit. (Tested with the vacuum-&-boost gauge leftover from my late lamented Mazda ... )

How do you explain so many complaints of "start-up rattle" with Ultras? That many leaky new ADBVs?

 

[Motorking]

Originally Posted by sloinker
I belong to many automotive oriented boards and all of them to some degree trash Fram oil filters. We are talking a broad swath of specialists that include many engine builders. I don't have a dog in this fight but was wondering why the seeming dichotomy? BTW- I usually use WIX as that seems to be the consensus for widely available moderate cost filters on other boards. I have used Fram infrequently in the past when I was pressed for time and Walmart is open 24/7.


Let me start with a history lesson. 30+ years ago, FRAM began blending synthetic glass fibers into the cellulose filter media. The filter efficiency improved dramatically. So much that the marketing guys began publishing single pass efficiency along with coining the phrase "remove the dirt the first time through the filter". We advertised the crap out of this. The response for WIX was this- spending millions of dollars building displays they distributed to auto parts stores showing our filter and theirs cut open. they mocked the engineered fiber end caps, after all "steel is better". They slandered the leaf spring design even though no OE uses coils due to the stress they put on the weakest part of the can. They continued this program for 30+ years only ending it when they were bought by Mann and Hummel, a company that makes filters with glue end caps, fleece end caps and plastic end caps. They are the only company in history who's ad campaign consists of telling you how bad the competitor is. What else could they say, our filter lets 10% more dirt in your oil? Well, many auto parts guys and oil filter buyers drank this koolaid. Then came the internet and youtube, where every dude with a cell camera is cutting open filters and offering uneducated opinions. There is not one single video on youtube that shows real filter testing, meaning how much dirt it removes from oil. FRAM began using fiber end caps during ww2 due to a steel shortage and the fact that steel end caps regularly would debond and cause the filter to rattle. Here are the facts, our patent is long gone on fiber end caps, Filtech (Nissan OE) uses them. Mahle (bentley/rolls royce OE) uses them, Toyota OE uses no end caps at all, Porsche, mercedes, BMW all use filters with fleece end caps. We have been supplying Honda with 13 million fiber end cap filters a year for the last 27 years, Subaru for the last 7. There are stories on the internet that go like this "my neighbors uncles cousins race car blew up with a fram filter on it." In every case I have tracked down, it was a Chevy that the owner removed and blocked of the bypass valve and then ran a pass car filter that does not contain a bypass. We are currently supplying more than 6 automakers with OES filters so you may already be using FRAM and just don't know it. Sorry for the long post, happy to answer questions or concerns anytime.

 

[Motorking]

Double the price of an Ultra

 

[spasm3]

Interesting history lesson! Thanks for the info!

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Motorking

Let me start with a history lesson. 30+ years ago, FRAM began blending synthetic glass fibers into the cellulose filter media. The filter efficiency improved dramatically. So much that the marketing guys began publishing single pass efficiency along with coining the phrase "remove the dirt the first time through the filter". We advertised the crap out of this. The response for WIX was this- spending millions of dollars building displays they distributed to auto parts stores showing our filter and theirs cut open. they mocked the engineered fiber end caps, after all "steel is better". They slandered the leaf spring design even though no OE uses coils due to the stress they put on the weakest part of the can. They continued this program for 30+ years only ending it when they were bought by Mann and Hummel, a company that makes filters with glue end caps, fleece end caps and plastic end caps. They are the only company in history who's ad campaign consists of telling you how bad the competitor is. What else could they say, our filter lets 10% more dirt in your oil? Well, many auto parts guys and oil filter buyers drank this koolaid. Then came the internet and youtube, where every dude with a cell camera is cutting open filters and offering uneducated opinions. There is not one single video on youtube that shows real filter testing, meaning how much dirt it removes from oil. FRAM began using fiber end caps during ww2 due to a steel shortage and the fact that steel end caps regularly would debond and cause the filter to rattle. Here are the facts, our patent is long gone on fiber end caps, Filtech (Nissan OE) uses them. Mahle (bentley/rolls royce OE) uses them, Toyota OE uses no end caps at all, Porsche, mercedes, BMW all use filters with fleece end caps. We have been supplying Honda with 13 million fiber end cap filters a year for the last 27 years, Subaru for the last 7. There are stories on the internet that go like this "my neighbors uncles cousins race car blew up with a fram filter on it." In every case I have tracked down, it was a Chevy that the owner removed and blocked of the bypass valve and then ran a pass car filter that does not contain a bypass. We are currently supplying more than 6 automakers with OES filters so you may already be using FRAM and just don't know it. Sorry for the long post, happy to answer questions or concerns anytime.



THANK YOU!

 

[Motorking]

Originally Posted by spasm3
Originally Posted by blupupher
Originally Posted by spasm3
... I won't run them because there are much better filters for the same money.

Care to share which filters are "much better filters for the same money" than Fram?

For my truck (2002 F150 with the 5.4), the PH 2 is $3.77, ToughGuard is $6.64, and Ultra is $8.97 (my walk into Walmart price every day).

Only readily available filter close in price to the Fram Extragard is the Supertech, and that is a Champ made filter with a combo valve and lower filtering numbers. Most all other major filter manufactures (Wix, Champ and Puro made store brands) are in the $5 range. There are a few Wix made store brand that may be the same price as the Fram, but again, a combo valve filter, which is a step down from the seperate bypass/silicone ADV of the Extraguard. Sure there are some made in China/ROK filters out there that are cheaper (heck, I have used some of the $2 EcoGard filters in my truck) but you don't always know the quality of those.
Comparing a Toughguard to a Wix, Purolator Pure One, Mobil 1 or K&N, TG is also cheaper.
As for synthetic media filters, I can't touch a Royal Purple, Amsoil, Wix XP/NAPA Platinum, or Purolator Boss for less than $13, and most are much more (like 2x the cost) of a Fram Ultra.



Napa silver. $3.99 for my hyundai. Does have nitrile drainback valve. But has steel end caps. I run the fram ultra, But if i was going to run an economy filter this would be it. My filter is mounted base plate up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSjZsNOehqI

That combo valve leaks like a sieve, ask WIX what the efficiency is of that filter, they will not tell you bc it is awful

 

[PimTac]

Thanks for the comments Motorking. Your presence here on BITOG is much appreciated.

 

[StevieC]

I just spoke with him via PM and I'm convinced on trying a Fram Ultra in place of my Amsoil EA since the filtration is slightly better and there is a cost savings on the filter for me of about $7 Canadian. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks Motorking / Jay!

 

[53' Stude]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Thanks for the comments Motorking. Your presence here on BITOG is much appreciated.



PimTac: take a gander at my 20k run tough guard. Filter did well considering many well below 0F starts in a brutal winter here in PA. Thats why i use fram tough guard and ULTRAS

 

[53' Stude]

Oh yeah: thank you motorking for the valuable info.and history

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by 53' Stude
Originally Posted by PimTac
Thanks for the comments Motorking. Your presence here on BITOG is much appreciated.



PimTac: take a gander at my 20k run tough guard. Filter did well considering many well below 0F starts in a brutal winter here in PA. Thats why i use fram tough guard and ULTRAS





I have the M1filter already for my next change but with the recent threads of sealant funk in the filters, I may go with the Ultra next time around. I've run Fram since way back but my recent vehicles have gotten the cheaper Japanese oem. Those are hard to get now as most Denso and Roki production is in Mexico.

 

[sprite1741]

I decided to try a Fram Ultra on my GXP last spring. It's coming off in 2 weeks and will be replaced with a Fram Ultra. My 2.2 now has a Fram Ultra put on in July. Inspecting the first one while in my hand and the cut open pictures convinced me this is the only filter to use now. Build quality, design, and price make this my choice now. With the Wix and A/C Delco conventional around $7 to $8 now, $8.97 at Walmart for a top line 20k mile synthetic is a bargain. Thanks Fram.