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- Feb 27, 2019
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Heat is gonna mess with any car. Even my manual pulls timing and struggles in insanely hot weather.
Why the dislike for CVTs?
- Thread starter OppositeLocK
- Start date
Heat is gonna mess with any car. Even my manual pulls timing and struggles in insanely hot weather.
Since your horse in incapable of propelling driver and passengers down the road at highway speeds that comment is nonsensical and irrelevant.
If ridiculously complex technology that is brittle to start with and will cost a fortune to repair when it breaks is your measure of greatness then we DEFINITELY have nothing in common. I'd take a good Torqueflite, that can last for decades and easily be overhauled when finally needed, over any of the disposable high-tech monstrosities built today.
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Do they last decades? Some are decades old, sure, but how many have needed sprucing up? And don't they date back to when the lifespan of a car was around 100k?
Not only that, but in an era where gas prices are on the other side of $2 a gallon (region specific and fluctuating over time), is it possible that mpg savings would pay for a trans rebuild, if and when it's required? I'm not sure if a 727 or 904 ever got to the other side of 20 mpg. Some autos today are stupid expensive to rebuild, I'm sure, but that's not to say that all of them are the same cost. I'm not sure where to start to find/make a chart of what it costs to rebuild a 727, 6L80, ZF8HP, etc so I'm not sure how the prices stack up.
Who wants to buy a used cvt car with 120k? Willing to take that risk? Knowing that your only option for a trans fix is probably a dealer replacement?
I have personally owned decades-old cars with Torqueflites that never required rebuilding. Usually at 100K it would not be the transmission failing unless the owner never maintained it. Allowing for overall inflation, gasoline is less expensive today than it was 50 years ago. A Torqueflite can be overhauled for about $1000-$1500, and it is possible for an ambitious shadetree mechanic to do it themselves for much less. What does it cost to overhaul a CVT, dual-clutch trans, or ZF 8-speed? (If you want overdrive for better gas mileage there are transmissions such as the Aisin-Warner AW4 that add the extra gear without too much additional complexity and are nearly as bulletproof as the old Chrysler boxes.)
I'd do a junkyard 5M conversion at that point or a 4EAT if you want to stay AUTO.
.That should be under 1K if DYI shadetree. This is longitudinal so there is decent access.
BTW, for other readers, I think most of the issues according to SOA in 2017 - affecting early transmissions - was the lockup clutch on the converter failing to unlock. Subaru locks their converter at very low speed and in low range to improve efficiency. This adds stresses.
So, NOT the CVT function and mechanics. The decades old converter lockup fail.
-Ken
The manufacturing boss at my old job was "stuck" in a Altima lease cycle, and his first car had two failures in 3 years and the second one had a failure also. I had a mid-line, new loaner Altima. when my Rogue Qashqai was in for service. The Altima is not a good mid size car if you want some competent "car-ness' out of you vehicle. Old GM FWD compact, midsize Olds and Buicks were much better for everyday drivers.
My Rogue - a great buy used in this segment - is a well developed platform and very solid behind the helm with a great AWD system.
It is also a MUCH more comfortable and competent car than the HOOD's vanilla Ice Cream Altima.
- Ken
As Someone who owned eight subarus, The Toyota RAV4 of the mid 200)'s was very competent and so was my '14 Nissan Rogue Qashqai.
We had a Forester around 2011 that couldn't make it around on a bad Winter's day due to poor OEM tires and an overly intrusive ASR/ traction control programming. I find vanilla Japanese cars have poorly turned out ASR. software; It's either time constraints, incompetence or both.
Surprisingly my FORD Ranger 2wd could be thrown in to a corner with reckless abandon and the ASR would drive it through brilliantly.
I kept pushing it further on this particular corner on the way to work - even at 120% - 130% over speed it drove right through!
I would love to interview that team. Just brilliant. Must have been from the Motorsports side.
I agree with you, on the highway they are like any other normal car. It's driving around town or the roads that are 45-65 MPH with stoplights that catch you every 1/2 mile where they are less than ideal. Going from 0-65MPH every half mile where the engine is screeeeeaming, feeling like you are going nowhere due to the CVT slipping away is just plain unpleasant.
The Subaru's in this scenario were a tad better due to their "shift points" but still it goes through them so sluggishly. Maybe I could get used to it, I dunno.
My Nissan Dealership wants ~$250 for a CVT service. They're charging for the whole temperature monitoring via scanner for the correct fluid volume but, they're only doing a drain & refill. Shame on them!
I can & did a drain & refill with Castrol Transmax CVT Fluid and just refilled with new CVT fluid, with the amount of fluid that I have removed.
I did start the engine, move the gear selector through all positions and removed the overfill plug to monitor the for the correct drizzle of fluid according to several Youtube videos that I watched. After 14 months, all is well with both the Altima & Civic in my signature.
I can & did a drain & refill with Castrol Transmax CVT Fluid and just refilled with new CVT fluid, with the amount of fluid that I have removed.
I did start the engine, move the gear selector through all positions and removed the overfill plug to monitor the for the correct drizzle of fluid according to several Youtube videos that I watched. After 14 months, all is well with both the Altima & Civic in my signature.
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I guess I would prefer a properly geared manual or perhaps one of these "amazing" ZF-8 speed autos I hear about, in the Outback, but the CVT isn't hard to live with for normal driving. There's no rubber banding except at less than 20% throtte at low rpms where you can't hear or feel the motor anyways and its doing it for maximum efficiency, which I like! At 55mph it runs at 1500rpm and then if you are climbing a grade it just slightly adjusts the rpm up to match the hp demand, no slipping or downshifting or anything you really notice unless you are watching the tach. I think it is easier to kill with abuse when its cold, as the CVT system is more torque limited than a tradition auto and temperature sensitive. So I don't beat on it in the cold for the first couple miles.
The 5 spd auto in the 06 CRV we had was actually far more annoying as 5th was a bit tall and unlocking the TC or the shift down to 4th on any grade was very noticable! Also there was no real manual mode so towing caused lots of shifting unless you picked 3 and endured near 4k rpm at 55mph. Other than the CRV, I've the only owned 3 spd autos, which I found were fine as they were geared so downshifting was unnecessary once you got over 50mph unless you had to pass.
The 5 spd auto in the 06 CRV we had was actually far more annoying as 5th was a bit tall and unlocking the TC or the shift down to 4th on any grade was very noticable! Also there was no real manual mode so towing caused lots of shifting unless you picked 3 and endured near 4k rpm at 55mph. Other than the CRV, I've the only owned 3 spd autos, which I found were fine as they were geared so downshifting was unnecessary once you got over 50mph unless you had to pass.
My first CVT experience was driving my friend's 2003 Murano. Drove it maybe 25 miles in mixed traffic. Never got used to that 'motorboat' sensation where the transmission never once felt completely connected to the engine. Between just being un-enjoyable to drive, and all the problems I've read about, I find myself hoping that all the carmakers aren't going the CVT direction. More recently, I drove a 2017 Toyota C-HR. The CVT robbed that engine of what little power it made. I would be curious to see how Toyota's CVT is performing, reliability-wise. As for the driving sensation, it left me snoring.
I bet that when Automatic Transmissions started their takeover from the manual world, if the internet existed then, the hate would have been just as strong.
Yeah, I don't think so. The automatic transmission was wanted and well-received, especially in America.
Meanwhile, no one asked for the CVT... yet here we are.
That's the thing, I don't know what the various transmissions cost to rebuild. It just gets touted that newer costs more, but I'm not sure I've seen numbers attached to the discussions.
Gas may be cheaper today but the modern transmissions still eek out more mpg. Therefore the question becomes, what costs less over an expected 150k+ lifespan?
Shallow souls perhaps, to be so easily drained.
I can say that in my 76 years my Pathfinder is the best vehicle that I have ever owned. I am use to the CVT and it works great for me and the Pathfinder is very comfortable and great for trips. I do drive my granddaughter's Rouge at least once a week and the way that CVT is programmed it is truly fun to drive. As far as reliability is concerned, Nissan's CVTs have improved a lot since they were introduced and I am not worried. Maintenance is the key.
The 2019, 2020 model year Impreza have no extended warranty, and no technical service bulletins at all on the CVT. In fact the 2020 model has had no recalls of any kind on any part of the car. There was an extended warranty of 10 years/100,000 miles on the 2016, 2017 models. The early manufactured 2018 got the offer but I know of no cases of CVT issues on 2018 or newer model year. The Impreza was completely redesigned in 2017 with brand new engine 80% new parts compared with the 2016. I follow the new generation Impreza forum and only one member has reported a transmission issue, and that was on the 2017. Only issue on the engine was a recall on 2019 PCV valves, that was 2020 model year switched to a steel PCV. The Crosstrek though it’s a newer vehicle is really just a lifted Impreza with plastic body cladding but it got the new engine in 2018. It’s also a heavier vehicle but with the same drivetrain. I have not heard of issue with 2018+ Crosstrek either.
The CVT are actually becoming more serviceable they made the valve control body easily accessible in recent years. If you look at the owner reliability ratings the Impreza/Crosstrek twin are 4 and 5 stars. I can’t speak to the other Subaru cars.
The issue in general seems to have been well handled by Subaru they have improved the Lineartronic 2.0. They offered extended warranty in model years that did not need it. Can you imagine Ford doing that? The Powershift DCT transmission was never fixed, it was litigated, and Ford lost massively. In the Ford transmission more than 50% were failing and they never redesigned nor fixed it. They stopped building cars. Subaru policy on the other hand, was to replace transmissions even though they could be repaired, because they wanted them returned to the factory for root cause analysis.
If you read some of the old grandpas on here they are still talking about head gasket leaks, an issue that was fixed TWO engine generations ago.
The Egyptians used cone drives to lift water I think. I had optical polishing machines from Strasbaugh made in the 1960’s that ran daily year after year with cones and belt variable speed drive. it’s an old idea. But when they started using metal belts on metal cones and they would be riding up and down the cones constantly I never could understand how that could be reliable long term. I guessthey are reliable now but still don’t get it.
Cvts in hybrids with constant gear engagement, not belt and cones, is a whole different thing and are very reliable. There is almost nothing to go wrong.
Cvts in hybrids with constant gear engagement, not belt and cones, is a whole different thing and are very reliable. There is almost nothing to go wrong.
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