Why the auto repair industry gets a bad rep

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Originally Posted By: gogozy

looks like there are a few mechanics on this thread, can i ask a question? how does shop or mechanics's view on the customer who do light maintenance on their own car? are we pain in the butt to deal with? or we make car repair pleasant because we understand and respect of their work more? just curious. (of course my mechanics friends tell me lots of tell of good/bad customers, but he never tell me about DIY, not sure if he does not want to offend me or something...) thanks!


The guy who writes this blog has nothing but contempt for shadetree mechanics. He used to post in a couple of the Edmunds.com forum topics. He was also renowned for always finding a reason to excuse any screw-up made by a "professional technician."
 
When I was in grad school back in the early '80s I was one of only a few car guys in my class. As a result, I often got called on for advice- and every now and then I would perform minor mechanical repairs and/or upgrades for my classmates(including installing a sound system for a delightfully eccentric young lady who could have passed for Debbie Harry's identical twin sister- but I digress...)

Anyway, one of my friends had a Mustang II(so did my girlfriend; that particular car motivated me to study hard- so that I would land a job that ensured I would never have to own or drive one ever again...) So one day my friend tells me that the car is stalling after it has been driven for 10-20 minutes. After 30 minutes or so it would fire up, run another 10-20 minutes and stall again. I tell him it could be anything from an ignition module that fails hot to a fuel system issue. I suggest taking it to a dealer or indie shop.

So... he takes it to his nearest Ford dealer. They change the fuel filter and "blow out the fuel lines." I told him that I hoped it worked, but that my guess was that whatever clogged the lines was still in the tank.

Two days later, the trusty steed stalls again. Back to the dealer it goes. This time they again blow out the lines and "install new EGR valve." I thought that call was a little sketchy, so I looked under the hood and found an EGR valve that looked like it had been on the car since it was new(Ford V8s of that vintage had an EGR valve assembly that was sandwiched between the carb and the intake manifold- I had dealt with them while doing my time in the lowest level of DIY mechanic purgatory servicing my parents' 1973 Bronco and 1974 Maverick). At this point I'm thinking the next thing the dealer should do is drop the tank and clean it out.

Anyone care to guess what happened next? This time I decide to go back to the dealer with my friend; I tell him to ask to speak to the Service Manager and to politely explain that the car had stalled again and to ask why a new EGR valve was installed(As for me, I was going to act as if I was just the guy who was giving him a ride- I really wanted to hear what the guy would say.) Anyways... when we go back to the dealer the SM comes out and apologizes for the problem. He pops the hood and pokes around the air cleaner and intake manifold for a minute and then announces, "I'm sorry for the mistake- this car doesn't even have an EGR valve. I think what we need to do is drop the gas tank and clean it out." At this point I've decided that any landing you walk away from is a good one- if the SM wants to take the EGR valve off the bill because he thinks the car doesn't have one I'm not going to get in his way. Sometimes a failure cascade works to your advantage.

And yes, the car ran fine after the tank was cleaned. And my girlfriend and I parted amicably- but not before I talked her into ditching that Mustang II for a new 1981 Accord coupe. My buddy and I both graduated and found jobs in our chosen professions, thereby relegating any potential future Mustang II ownership to the ash heap of history. As for me, I soon met my future(and present) wife, who permanently endeared herself to me by locating my first BMW: a 1973 Bavaria 3.0.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071

I'm not sure how shop employees can sleep at night when they use the scare tactic on their customers.


Let me be the devil's advocate here for a second. I don't like shops or dealers any more than the next person and that is the reason I do all the work, within my abilities, on our cars, but looking at the general driving public, we are the reason for this state of affairs.

People simply expect cheap $20-$30 oil changes all day long. They expect to have a shuttle or a rental, they expect to have a nice latte or a coffee, TV room and nice magazines to read while they wait. These things aren't free and I have absolutely no ill feelings for shops to upsell stuff. They are not charities.
You will notice that usually a good indy will have some crummy waiting room with few magazines that are really old and that's about it.

There are exceptions of course, but repairing cars is not an easy business to be in, because people's expectations and the "I deserve" factor are in all-time high, but their willingness to pay is in all-time low.


These shop employees don't get paid all that much for what they do and are trying to make a living. Is it such a big deal for them to recommend brake pad change few thousand miles earlier? I don't think it is.
I can name quite a few other occupations where people's morals are far more compromised or downright non-existent.


I can understand your view, but there is a difference between recommending to a customer they should do something, and another to say their car is dangerous to drive. She basically thought she couldn't drive her car because "one more panic stop would make her car unable to stop". I'd say that is a pretty drastic difference.

That is like going to the doctor and having him say "you are a bit overweight and should take action soon before it becomes a health hazard" versus "if you don't do something today you will die".
 
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Originally Posted By: gogozy


looks like there are a few mechanics on this thread, can i ask a question? how does shop or mechanics's view on the customer who do light maintenance on their own car? are we pain in the butt to deal with? or we make car repair pleasant because we understand and respect of their work more? just curious. (of course my mechanics friends tell me lots of tell of good/bad customers, but he never tell me about DIY, not sure if he does not want to offend me or something...) thanks!


That probably comes down to the individual mechanic and the individual customer.

When I worked on cars, I didn't mind competent DIYers at all because I could actually explain things to them without having to dumb things down to a ridiculous level. The manager sometimes thought I explained too much and might have cost us a job, but I didn't see it that way. For one, competent DIYers will research a repair before committing to it regardless of what you tell them. Second, if you give an accurate explanation, and their own research backs up what you say, they will be more likely to trust you for the things they don't want to do.

What I didn't like was people who would try a hack job repair, then want it fixed right after coating the part in JB Weld or whatever. Or people who thought they knew a lot about cars, but really had no clue. Also, people who expect a free diagnosis so they can swap the part on their own.

In my experience, the competent DIYers were among the best customers.

Some service writers probably feel differently about that because their pay is based on the jobs they sell. Still, they probably prefer a DIYer to someone who is in a panic because they don't understand what is broken or why it costs money to fix it.

The 99% of customers who don't have a clue are why I now work in parts instead of service. I still deal with a lot of idiots, but the ratio is much more manageable.


thanks, that sounds comforting to DIY like me! but i thought customer buying parts would know the stuff otherwise why would they know what they need?

sometimes I felt guilty because i only take the car to shop for "heavy repair" (my buddy does not do heavy work, too tiring, plus he like to take it slow now!!), so I feel like i am dumping or offloading tough work on others everytime i went to shop
blush.gif
!
well, if I take my car to a shop, I will usually just go with the flow afterward, and i do tell the shop that i can't finish it, how can anyone cover their trail?? JB wield?!!
 
The problem with parts is a lot of people who have no business working on a car, but are desperate for a cheap fix, will guess at what they need, give you bad info on their vehicle, etc. Lots of people who try to DIY to save money really shouldn't.

Major repairs are actually what most shops want. They don't make very much money at all on basic services like oil changes, which is why they use oil changes as an opportunity to sell air filters, wiper blades, etc.

There is nothing wrong with taking a car to a shop when you find a repair is beyond what you want or can do, it's hacking the car up beforehand that can be frustrating for the mechanic. For example, someone hacks up wiring, then wants an electrical diagnosis done on it.
 
Originally Posted By: MCompact

Anyway, one of my friends had a Mustang II(so did my girlfriend; that particular car motivated me to study hard- so that I would land a job that ensured I would never have to own or drive one ever again...)

haha, that's funny!

I read the link in the previous post and it's interesting points, how manufacturer trying to squeeze the independent/neighbour shop out, but paying mechanics $20/hour? I dont think my friend would go work for dealership if they pay him less than $40/hour. maybe the author mean the paying rate at indy shop. too many consumers, the dealership and the shop are both "shark", just dealer is a bigger shark I guess. there are a lot less modified cars around my place compare to 10 years ago, at one point there were everywhere but not anymore. not sure this is due to manufacturer clamp down on emission control or young kids just aren't attract to automobile anymore. and true that fewers are willing to know how car works, the item is more like an appliances, without passion.
or simply a few bad apples ruin the reputation of whole. such recommend customer to pay attention the brake life is good, but scare customer with words such as one panic stop is.... taking advantages of someone who is in vulnerable situation. 20 years ago my wife would probably agree to every repair they recommend, now she will likely ask me to find a replacement for 11+ years old, and tow it to junk yard!
 
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
The problem with parts is a lot of people who have no business working on a car, but are desperate for a cheap fix, will guess at what they need, give you bad info on their vehicle, etc. Lots of people who try to DIY to save money really shouldn't.

Major repairs are actually what most shops want. They don't make very much money at all on basic services like oil changes, which is why they use oil changes as an opportunity to sell air filters, wiper blades, etc.

There is nothing wrong with taking a car to a shop when you find a repair is beyond what you want or can do, it's hacking the car up beforehand that can be frustrating for the mechanic. For example, someone hacks up wiring, then wants an electrical diagnosis done on it.


wiring? oh man, i think it's better for shop to charge the rate by hour!! I have no experiences (or lucky dont need to) on working on these repair, and I don't want to modify them!! aren't these light, but tedious?

funny, over the years of doing some maintenance, and minor repair on my own car, I found the saving is not that much if include the "my own" labour rate. sure I can shorten my OCI like crazy
smile.gif
for regular maintenance I found I actually spending more time in preparing jacking up the car, keep garage tidy, make sure no oil spill floor, clean up vs actual remove filter/drain and fill...
 
Originally Posted By: gogozy
[
looks like there are a few mechanics on this thread, can i ask a question? how does shop or mechanics's view on the customer who do light maintenance on their own car? are we pain in the butt to deal with? or we make car repair pleasant because we understand and respect of their work more? just curious. (of course my mechanics friends tell me lots of tell of good/bad customers, but he never tell me about DIY, not sure if he does not want to offend me or something...) thanks!



I have to say that I agree with 01rangerxl. It really depends. I take care of a few DIY'ers. The only sticking spot I find with one or two of them is parts price. They are still stuck in the mode of them buying parts from the parts house. But the thing is- they're not. They're now buying them from me. Now I get a discount on parts, and that discount varies on what I'm buying, but it's not always as much as people think. For parts up to 100.00, we mark up 30%. A typical walk in is able to beat that price more often than not and sometimes they'll ask why the price is "so high"... Well- that 30% keeps our lights on, keeps the shop cool in the summer and warm in the winter. It pays all sorts of fees that the DIY'er doesn't have. And most importantly, it does all that BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO YOURSELF. If everyone were capable of making every conceivable repair, then shops, their associated bills and the proportionately higher prices wouldn't exist.

Another point on our marked up parts. We are a general repair shop- we'll fix most anything that breaks and we don't just install parts. We sell them as well. Sure Joe Blow farmer could go out to an Ag dealer and buy XYZ part for the same or less than from us, BUT when they buy from us (and this applies to ANY part- ag, auto, hydraulic, and so on)- you get the knowledge that comes with the diverse and varied experience we have. It helps keep them from damaging that new part and costing more money yet. You get in person or over the phone support and most all hours or the day and night. We can't really bill this as labor, so again the mark up is needed.
 
I'm a mechanic myself, and even for me the amount of botched up, zero pride work [censored] me off. I make a point to be very honest and forthcoming with customers - treat them and their vehicle how I want to be treated. But even still, lots of folks walk in the door with a chip on their shoulder acting like I'm their enemy.

It really makes me sad... Figure behind each one of those people is a story that so soiled their experience they have a distrust of mechanics.

If a customer wants something done ahead of time or something, I'm fine with that. I make it clear to them that XYZ work can wait, but if they insist I'll do it. No problem. But I'll pack up my tools and walk out the door before I scam someone. Wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

I think the industry is partly to blame too. Corporate money. Shop rate is $100+/hr and I'll only see 10% of that. Physically hard labor, long hours, working holidays, needing to buy tens of thousands of dollars in tools (a single wrench can cost $130+). Top that of with the amount of schooling needed. And a high level of physical risk, especially in hybrid cars where you slip up, forget a step and you're dead. I think it drives some people to the point of desperation.

Couple that with social media... It's no longer "one customer tells 10 friends," it's" one customer tells 50 million people."
 
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I've been in the business over 25 years and of the thousands of techs I've met, I could only say a couple of them are 'dishonest'. I think many people are mistaking incompetency for dishonesty. I am sure most other professions have the same percentage or higher of dishonest workers (and incompetency).

Misdiagnosis is a huge problem in this industry and people tend to interpret this as being ripped off. Nobody wants to pay for a repair that didn't fix the problem and there are few shops who want to sell it to you. Techs go home and feel like [censored] when they've misdiagnosed something. They don't want to take your hard earned money. Fixing cars is hard and we've got a serious training problem in this industry.

My attitude on prices is that if you don't want to pay my markup and prices, go somewhere else - I won't be offended. I do not want to work on anyone's car who is shopping for the cheapest price, because they are usually trouble. I charge a certain price because that is what I have calculated the job is worth to me. If the shop down the road with dirt floors and a toothless mechanic name Skeeter will do it for 25% less and that is what is important to you, then go there.

If you bring me the car, it's not that you don't have the time or the tools, it's because you are incapable of doing it. And there is nothing wrong with that, just admit your limitations. I have no problem with people who DIY oil change and basic maintenance, etc. I prefer it because there is no shop who makes any money on oil changes and no journeyman level tech who looks forward to doing it.
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: gogozy
[
looks like there are a few mechanics on this thread, can i ask a question? how does shop or mechanics's view on the customer who do light maintenance on their own car? are we pain in the butt to deal with? or we make car repair pleasant because we understand and respect of their work more? just curious. (of course my mechanics friends tell me lots of tell of good/bad customers, but he never tell me about DIY, not sure if he does not want to offend me or something...) thanks!



I have to say that I agree with 01rangerxl. It really depends. I take care of a few DIY'ers. The only sticking spot I find with one or two of them is parts price. They are still stuck in the mode of them buying parts from the parts house. But the thing is- they're not. They're now buying them from me. Now I get a discount on parts, and that discount varies on what I'm buying, but it's not always as much as people think. For parts up to 100.00, we mark up 30%. A typical walk in is able to beat that price more often than not and sometimes they'll ask why the price is "so high"... Well- that 30% keeps our lights on, keeps the shop cool in the summer and warm in the winter. It pays all sorts of fees that the DIY'er doesn't have. And most importantly, it does all that BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO YOURSELF. If everyone were capable of making every conceivable repair, then shops, their associated bills and the proportionately higher prices wouldn't exist.

Another point on our marked up parts. We are a general repair shop- we'll fix most anything that breaks and we don't just install parts. We sell them as well. Sure Joe Blow farmer could go out to an Ag dealer and buy XYZ part for the same or less than from us, BUT when they buy from us (and this applies to ANY part- ag, auto, hydraulic, and so on)- you get the knowledge that comes with the diverse and varied experience we have. It helps keep them from damaging that new part and costing more money yet. You get in person or over the phone support and most all hours or the day and night. We can't really bill this as labor, so again the mark up is needed.

that would make sense, it's understandable, that ordering parts, checking parts diagram, sign off delivery and have place to store them all come at the cost. that why I was wondering one with better hard skill, and not good in dealing with business probably work for a boss! and you bring up a very good point, the shop can communicate/complain to supplier about parts better than average consumer like me. unfortunately so far I often bring my own parts
blush.gif
.... because here in Canada the OE parts at dealership is 30-50% more than US, then there is 20-25% discount online!
 
10% of shop rate? that's very bad. that is really bad for moral of workers... (ya, all profit went to head of corporate... but that is a different subject), I didn't know the risk of working in hybrid cars, i will remind myself if we ever considering such car. yes, it's a hard labour, one of my friends left the profession because he found out the hard way air tools (is it what it call?) is very very bad for the joins.

now I get my head straight, I didn't thought of such before, that no shop will ever make money by doing regular maintenance! I do take my car to shop due to one, some, or all of these reason, lack of tools, time, skill, or getting too tired after trying
wink.gif
I wish... one day I can have a lift in my garage... my wife said.. keep on dreaming... (I will have to exaggerate A LOT about the work I done for the cars... and... gees, isn't that what we consumer hate about....the guy working on our cars?
smirk.gif
)
 
Originally Posted By: gogozy
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: gogozy
[
looks like there are a few mechanics on this thread, can i ask a question? how does shop or mechanics's view on the customer who do light maintenance on their own car? are we pain in the butt to deal with? or we make car repair pleasant because we understand and respect of their work more? just curious. (of course my mechanics friends tell me lots of tell of good/bad customers, but he never tell me about DIY, not sure if he does not want to offend me or something...) thanks!



I have to say that I agree with 01rangerxl. It really depends. I take care of a few DIY'ers. The only sticking spot I find with one or two of them is parts price. They are still stuck in the mode of them buying parts from the parts house. But the thing is- they're not. They're now buying them from me. Now I get a discount on parts, and that discount varies on what I'm buying, but it's not always as much as people think. For parts up to 100.00, we mark up 30%. A typical walk in is able to beat that price more often than not and sometimes they'll ask why the price is "so high"... Well- that 30% keeps our lights on, keeps the shop cool in the summer and warm in the winter. It pays all sorts of fees that the DIY'er doesn't have. And most importantly, it does all that BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO YOURSELF. If everyone were capable of making every conceivable repair, then shops, their associated bills and the proportionately higher prices wouldn't exist.

Another point on our marked up parts. We are a general repair shop- we'll fix most anything that breaks and we don't just install parts. We sell them as well. Sure Joe Blow farmer could go out to an Ag dealer and buy XYZ part for the same or less than from us, BUT when they buy from us (and this applies to ANY part- ag, auto, hydraulic, and so on)- you get the knowledge that comes with the diverse and varied experience we have. It helps keep them from damaging that new part and costing more money yet. You get in person or over the phone support and most all hours or the day and night. We can't really bill this as labor, so again the mark up is needed.

that would make sense, it's understandable, that ordering parts, checking parts diagram, sign off delivery and have place to store them all come at the cost. that why I was wondering one with better hard skill, and not good in dealing with business probably work for a boss! and you bring up a very good point, the shop can communicate/complain to supplier about parts better than average consumer like me. unfortunately so far I often bring my own parts
blush.gif
.... because here in Canada the OE parts at dealership is 30-50% more than US, then there is 20-25% discount online!


That's exactly what many people don't get. There are costs associated with warehousing parts, transporting parts, and the time involved in getting the right part. The average customer has no idea what kind of headaches come into play. And shops don't make nearly as much money off of parts markup as people tend to think.

I had a body shop give me a VIN for a Chilean market Kia Sportage today, and wanted a head lamp assembly. The Chilean part number is no bueno in the US. I can't order it. I have a US part number I think will work, but I can't be positive until the part is fitted to the car. Why this thing is in the US is beyond me.
 
The_Eric, SnowDrifter, 01rangerxl, Scott_Tucker & Chris142:

Firstly, thanks for sharing your stories. I have the utmost respect for honest and competent mechanics who have nothing but the customer's best interests at heart.

It's one of those professions that unfortunately you're most at the mercy of working for corporations, dealers and others whose primary goal is making money anyway they can and many of the people you work alongside go along with the system and become part of it to survive.

I'm sure you know this already but the best answer is to work in a shop where they have like minded people, which it sounds like you do, or have your own shop.

It's taken me a little while to figure out how the repair industry works, how as a consumer to get the best result and that sometimes mistakes are genuine and understandable eg my go to mechanic has made errors because of vehicle nuances he didn't know about. I do more and more work myself but have got trustworthy and competent options for more complicated issues. But it took a lot of work to figure out who those options were.

On the topic of parts, I totally understand that if the shop gets the parts, there is a cost involved that needs to be covered. But if I choose to get the parts, I would imagine that saves the shop some time and therefore money (and costs me time). So if the shop is unhappy that a customer brings in parts, there must be profit beyond just covering costs in the parts price charged. Additionally, if I bring in parts, then any warranty issue related to the parts becomes my problem. So I don't get it when shops want to up the labor charged if I bring in parts.
 
I prefer not to use customer supplied parts and in many instances will refuse.

What happens if I get a car torn apart on my rack and the part is wrong? What happens if it's going to another couple days before the right part will arrive? Who is going to pay for lost opportunity to work on someone else's car because my rack is tied up?

If the part is defective, who pays to take it back out? I don't want to have to charge a customer to do a job twice but if I am doing the work twice, I expect to get paid twice if it was caused by a part I did not supply.

Then I think the reason the customer supplied the part is because they can't afford to fix their car in the first place and I feel bad. So I only charge them once and eat the rest. People tend to think mechanics are soulless creatures who only think about the next dollar they can swipe from someone's pocket, but they're not.

You're confusing us with our illegitimate cousins, the used car salesman.
 
[quote 01rangerxl]
That's exactly what many people don't get. There are costs associated with warehousing parts, transporting parts, and the time involved in getting the right part. The average customer has no idea what kind of headaches come into play. And shops don't make nearly as much money off of parts markup as people tend to think.
[/quote]


Yes, another fine point! Since we are a general repair shop, we'll work on anything- including old or antique equipment. We have a Minneapolis Moline tractor in right now and I'm here to tell you that you've got to DIG for some of the parts. Sure, Stiener, Riley and few others may have some parts, but then you've got to troll the forums looking for the right supplier for an obsolete number, or the new replacement oil filter number, this or that... I spent over 2 hours between looking online and calling people to get an venturi insert, idle and economizer jet for the Marvel Schebler carb on that thing!
 
A lot of the larger shops do charge a ton and do not pay their mechanics much at all. It's understandable, though, they have bills, insurance, franchising fees, rent/lease, etc. Plus the owner(s) have to make money.

I consider myself very lucky that I have a good independent mechanic. He charges what (I consider to be) a very reasonable rate and I can trust that he won't recommend unnecessary stuff. It's worth the 20 mile drive out of the city.
 
Yes, it's a risk parts that customer brings may or may not fit... and sometimes it's the reason customer bring the car in because it simply does not fit! that why my buddy said he would make a note on the receipt with "customer bring own parts" - - just in case!
also told me that often OE parts are more expensive, but fit perfectly 99% of the time, the 1% is other mating part was generic
grin.gif
and therefore while using generic parts may save $$ on materials, there is a risk of end up higher overall cost due to time spend on labour to get things fit into the place properly, shorter life (frequent replacement). at his advise I using OE components mostly.
just saw another post I thought I would share some humour (reality) with everyone here..

"Shop rate is $80 an hour,
$100 if you bring parts,
$120 if you watch,
$140 if you help."
 
In my (admittedly limited) experience this is most evident with exhaust components. Maybe some are better than others, but OEM exhaust parts line up and fit with millimeter precision. Many of the aftermarket parts I have tried take considerable pulling and torquing to get it installed. When a friend asks for help repairing their car and it involves the exhaust, I always tell them I will only help/do the work if they buy OEM parts. Due to the often much higher price that weeds out a few, but the rest have an installation that I won't have to stare at again in a year.

Originally Posted By: gogozy
Yes, it's a risk parts that customer brings may or may not fit... and sometimes it's the reason customer bring the car in because it simply does not fit! that why my buddy said he would make a note on the receipt with "customer bring own parts" - - just in case!
also told me that often OE parts are more expensive, but fit perfectly 99% of the time, the 1% is other mating part was generic
grin.gif
and therefore while using generic parts may save $$ on materials, there is a risk of end up higher overall cost due to time spend on labour to get things fit into the place properly, shorter life (frequent replacement). at his advise I using OE components mostly.
just saw another post I thought I would share some humour (reality) with everyone here..

"Shop rate is $80 an hour,
$100 if you bring parts,
$120 if you watch,
$140 if you help."
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric


Yes, another fine point! Since we are a general repair shop, we'll work on anything- including old or antique equipment. We have a Minneapolis Moline tractor in right now and I'm here to tell you that you've got to DIG for some of the parts. Sure, Stiener, Riley and few others may have some parts, but then you've got to troll the forums looking for the right supplier for an obsolete number, or the new replacement oil filter number, this or that... I spent over 2 hours between looking online and calling people to get an venturi insert, idle and economizer jet for the Marvel Schebler carb on that thing!


Yep, the research costs time, and time costs money! And the older it is, the less readily available information is out there, let alone the actual part.
 
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