why spin-on ATF filters are rare?

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Saves money for the OE mfr. If they think the car can make it out of warranty without it, why install one. If cars had auto trans filters of a significant filtration capacity, auto trans would probably last about forever in normal use. They practically do that now most of the time.


Exactly.
Except, I would bet most transmission problems are due to parts failures not fluid failures.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
because the manufacturers hate people....
The people buy the cars.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: sunfire
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: sunfire


Just one less thing you the owner will have shell out money to maintain or have to worry about... lower cost of maintenance. For example my 05 Corolla does not have a fuel filter and uses a screen ATF filter which probably never needs to be placed. Toyota must feel their transmissions will manage fine with just a screen filter and regular ATF drain fills.


The reason I started the thread was that I just did a pan drop in 03 corolla with 60000 miles and there was a lot of fine debris in the filter and the pan. One drain and fill ATF change at 30000. I cleaned the filter, but it would be better off to replace it. Did you service your transmission yet?


First, drain fill at 40.6K miles with T-IV. Second, drain fill 43.2K with PZ Multi Vehicle. And last weekend at 46.7K again with PZ Multi Vehicle. Drained about 4.5 qts each time.

The first drain fill had a thin film of sludge settled at the bottom of the pan. The screen filter still seems to be in good condition I just wiped off the metal shavings. Wiped the pan clean. Cleaned the magnets. Needlessly spent $25 on a new ATF pan gasket the first drain fill. Also reset the ECU each time.

I definitely noticed this second fill of PZMV makes the transmission shift different. Its a bit more tight and responsive. May sound strange but it feels like the transmission is better at delivering power from the engine to the wheels. It seems to have dampened the sounds from the engine... engine is not as laud. Still getting used to the new feel of the transmission and shifting.
Fresh oil is a good thing.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: sunfire

First, drain fill at 40.6K miles with T-IV. Second, drain fill 43.2K with PZ Multi Vehicle. And last weekend at 46.7K again with PZ Multi Vehicle. Drained about 4.5 qts each time.

The first drain fill had a thin film of sludge settled at the bottom of the pan. The screen filter still seems to be in good condition I just wiped off the metal shavings. Wiped the pan clean. Cleaned the magnets. Needlessly spent $25 on a new ATF pan gasket the first drain fill. Also reset the ECU each time.

I definitely noticed this second fill of PZMV makes the transmission shift different. Its a bit more tight and responsive. May sound strange but it feels like the transmission is better at delivering power from the engine to the wheels. It seems to have dampened the sounds from the engine... engine is not as laud. Still getting used to the new feel of the transmission and shifting.


My first drain and fill at 30000 was T-IV. Now, at 60000 I used the new Mobil 1 ATF. I cannot say that I feel a difference, but there is still 50% old fluid in. Next change (? 90000 miles) will be Redline D4 as I picked it up cheap on ebay.

I paid $14 for gasket at dealership. Later, I realized that the same money buys gasket and filter at Autozone.

 

[deeter16317]

Originally Posted By: sunfire
Originally Posted By: deeter16317
Originally Posted By: sunfire
Probably high cost of maintenance. Oil filters won't last over 10K miles.


Why??


Just one less thing you the owner will have shell out money to maintain or have to worry about...



I should have been more specific, why only 10k for an oil filter?? My Subaru spin on filter, which is very close to the oil filter in specification, is rated for 50k.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Saves money for the OE mfr. If they think the car can make it out of warranty without it, why install one. If cars had auto trans filters of a significant filtration capacity, auto trans would probably last about forever in normal use. They practically do that now most of the time.


Exactly.
Except, I would bet most transmission problems are due to parts failures not fluid failures.


I agree. If you read the series of SAE articles done by Eletherakis and Khalil (900561 and 99PC418 in particular) illustrating the testing done since the early '90s on wear metals in transmissions, as well as the one done by Nieuwland and Droste on optimizing automatic trans oil cleanliness (SAE 2001-01-0867) you'll believe that it's the practically unfiltered oil that's killing them. Built-in contamination from manufacturing (or remanufacturing), break in metals and normal wear serve to turn the oil into a slurry of contaminants if the oil isn't changed... or filtered. The articles listed above (all available from the SAE website by the way) will quote chapter and verse on how much effect this can have on long term life.

 

[Gary Allan]

Jim, it sounds like you're disagreeing with Steve S in your text ..who is your last quoted source.

My take? It has no downside beyond its minor expense. While the manufacturer's projected life expectancy has probably factored everything to cover most of the mass of averages, and buffered/compensated/fortified things according to those statistics, there are always variables that I'd rather not be subjected to in the random fringe analysis that they aren't going to count as statistically significant.

Aside from paying attention to a couple more hose clamps and replacing another $5 filter a bit more often, I've nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I keep my cars a long time.

 

[unDummy]

Jim, thanks for the SAE paper quotes. Most people don't believe anything until its quoted somewhere.

I always push additional filtration, cooling, and quality fluids 'til I'm blue in the face. Additional maintenance intervals in lieu of upgrades is another option.

I've seen the worn out VB's and seals, and don't need SAE as proof. But, the proof was always there.

I give credit for any automaker that adds a serviceable quality filter.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Jim, it sounds like you're disagreeing with Steve S in your text ..who is your last quoted source.

My take? It has no downside beyond its minor expense. While the manufacturer's projected life expectancy has probably factored everything to cover most of the mass of averages, and buffered/compensated/fortified things according to those statistics, there are always variables that I'd rather not be subjected to in the random fringe analysis that they aren't going to count as statistically significant.

Aside from paying attention to a couple more hose clamps and replacing another $5 filter a bit more often, I've nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I keep my cars a long time.


Not really disagreeing, but not agreeing either. Wear metals ARE parts failures in a way and if left inside an automatic, they cause a slow cascade failure.

I now think that within normal temperature parameters (keepting the oil cool to within it's design limits) filtration is more important in an automatic than the oil you use... as long as it meets the OE specs, of course.

I have been gobstruck at how well the Magnefine and Racor systems on my two trucks have cleaned up the transmission oil. I have some other tests coming in soon as well on the power steering systems. The one on the '86, which was overdue for a fluid change, should be particularly interesting.

Those sources I listed are the "chapter and verse" I mentioned. There are other sources also, but they have only small amounts of what those sources show. I consider them the "one-stop-shopping" on this topic. There are also some Ford and Chrysler qualifications tests, not public domain, that shed light on these issues.

I keep my trucks a long time too and I'm ashamed I didn't discover this sooner to help the truck I've owned 20+ years carry me to my grave.

 

[Gary Allan]

Hey, I'm Mr. Filtration, pal

Thanks for the excerpts

 

[Steve S]

I agree that a filter is a good thing and probably all the bigger equipmemt I have worked on has a spin on external trans filter on automatics, which prolongs the life of the trans and oil if the oil is not overheated . Most automobile buyers have no clue and the manufactures know people buy their craap . Most people do not keep their cars that long . So adding filters and running premium oils have no pay back for the average car buyer that is what I have to state my opinions on. Years ago there was a website that listed trendings on submitted UOAs from Ford Powerstroke pickups. Many would run syn oil, bypass filters change the syn oil often then turn over their pickups at 100,000 miles or when the lease ran out.I would bet they didn't get 1 cent extra for all the extra money they spent and the buyer got a well maintained vehicle but really did not have a clue or care that it was properly maintained. Some people are not the average car buyers on this board.

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: thrace
Quote:
If cars had auto trans filters of a significant filtration capacity, auto trans would probably last about forever in normal use. They practically do that now most of the time.
Wish they did. My Honda 5 spd auto transmission failed near 70k miles. Slipped in third gear. Changed ATF every 10k miles and did not tow. Used to be engines and transmissions often lasted until the owner got tired of the car. Now the transmission fails early.

And yet many honda cars of years before had no AT filter, and lasted for 200,000 miles.

I'm convinced that the AT attached to the Odyssey van is an inherently flawed design, that is why nobody ever gets more than 80,000 miles from one.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: thrace
Quote:
If cars had auto trans filters of a significant filtration capacity, auto trans would probably last about forever in normal use. They practically do that now most of the time.
Wish they did. My Honda 5 spd auto transmission failed near 70k miles. Slipped in third gear. Changed ATF every 10k miles and did not tow. Used to be engines and transmissions often lasted until the owner got tired of the car. Now the transmission fails early.

And yet many honda cars of years before had no AT filter, and lasted for 200,000 miles.

I'm convinced that the AT attached to the Odyssey van is an inherently flawed design, that is why nobody ever gets more than 80,000 miles from one.


The same could have been said for the Chrysler minivans. They had a much higher failure rate than the same units in other chassis ..or at least at the mileage onset of issues. It either points to a weak trans for the application ..or the driving habits of minivan drivers.

 

[unDummy]

Transmissions are shrinking in size, offering more gears, slipping more during shifts for smoothness feel, moving heavier vehicles around, and being pushed by higher HP motors.
Newer vehicles simply tax the drivetrain too much.

And, to keep costs down, every possible manufacturing shortcut that can be taken, will be. For example, your transmission hard components: billet vs. forged vs. cast vs. stamped vs. PM

Toss in the fact that a percentage of people trade in after they make there last payment, making anything last longer then 'statistics' or the 'warranty' is a waste of money.