Why Moto Guzzi Recommend 10W60 Syn for 1200's ?

[LoneRanger]

I'm trying to understand why a roller tappet over-square air/oil cooled 90 degree v-twin (engine does not share oil to clutch or gears) needs such a high HTHS film strength. Specifically, the manual for the 8 valve 1134cc 90 degree v-twin bikes recommends AGIP 10W60 synthetic JASO MA compliant. OCI laid out in manual is 1st change @ 900 miles then every 6200 miles. Engine drives a dry clutch which connects to the gearbox and powers the CARC shaft drive which the shaft is also parallel to the longitudinal axis. No 90 degree gearing angles for crankshaft-to-final-drive, so helps a little against drivetrain losses I suppose.

Why the need for JASO MA compliance if the bike doesn't use a wet clutch? Why the thick high HTHS oil? We talking 1134 cc's here, over square. The bikes are not torque monsters or high hp and red line at only about 8000. There is a 2nd pump for the oil cooling system in addition to the engine's oil pump.

Rated output for the 8V Stelvio NTX is, I believe, 105hp and 83 lb-ft tq with about 66 lb-ft coming on at around 2000 rpm. Not bad for a rather old school 1134cc air cooled v-twin.

 

[ammolab]

Seems strange...my BMW twins always used 20W-50 but with the cooler on my 2011 R1200R I can run 5W-40 no sweat.

 

[LoneRanger]

Hoping if I end up getting a Stelvio, I can use up my unopened 4 liter jug of Spectro Platinum 4 15W50 synthetic (PAO) and also the unopened jug of Silkolene Pro 4 15W50 synthetic (ester and Group III) and later settle in to using something less spendy than the AGIP 10W60 ...

 

[SR5]

Nice bike, I like Guzzi's, yes I too have noticed they spec 10W60, but I can't see a good quality synthetic 15W50 causing you any problems, it should work fine.

Like you said, you have a dry clutch, so I just read the MA as meaning a good quality oil. I ran Castrol Edge 10W60 in my wet clutch Honda CBR600 for 10 years solid with annual oil changes. No engine problems and no clutch problems. It liked the oil a lot, very smooth gear changes. I have read it has about 1000 ppm zinc and the Edge 10W60 may be another option for you. I would also consider M1 15W50, another high HTHS, high zinc, high quality synthetic.

So why do Guzzi want a quality synthetic 10W60 in their bike when a typical Japanese bike would call for a 10W40 ? I suspect it has to do with sump capacity. The Japanese bikes take about 4L of oil, but I believe your Guzzi would be about half that. Also most, but not all, Japanese bikes are water cooled; while your Guzzi is air and oil cooled I believe. Put that altogether and you have in your Guzzi a small volume of oil carrying more of the heat, so a thicker full synthetic oil makes sense to me.

 

[bulwnkl]

I was looking around Wild Guzzi a bit, several months back, for answers to that exact question. No hard technical data was presented that I could find, of course, but my fuzzy memory is wanting me to say:

-They weren't roller rockers until very recently, and the previous flat tappets failed MUCH more than they should have.
-Low oil pressure was a theme if lower-vis fluids are used.

Maybe my memory is too fuzzy, but I'm sure I recall coming across those two explanations, at least.

 

[beanoil]

Air/oil cooled, so they are covering whatever temperature the engine might see.
I ran my air/oil cooled BMW on a steady diet of Mobil 15w50.
My guess is that you will be fine with nearly any 20w50 in the sump.
Conventional Havoline holds up well in HD, similar use in the Guzzi.
I liked Shockproof heavy in the BMW trans and rear drive. You might like it too.

 

[CT8]

Air cooled.

 

[BrocLuno]

+1

Oil runs hotter than water cooled machines. So that 60 is thinned out by heat to prolly be equivalent of 40 in water cooled system ... They are thinking worst case. AZ summer two up with luggage, etc

 

[andyd]

+2

Air cools have heat expansion figured into the piston clearances.

 

[DoubleWasp]

They may know something about the engine that you do not.

On our KTM LC4 engines, they recommend 10/60 despite the fact that it is water cooled and has roller rockers.

KTM LC4 engines are also marked for occasional rocker bearing or cam failure. I suspect this is why the recommendation for such a stout oil.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
They may know something about the engine that you do not.

...


^^THAT^^

So many variables on how an engine is designed and unless you talk to the engineers you will never know the answer.

The 60 maybe called for simply because of what the engine normal operating temperature is, or possible engine clearances/oil pump design, or maintaining proper pressure for jets that spray oil on the bottom of the pistons in hot/high speed riding conditions, umm what about hydraulic lifters in some bikes? do they need a proper oil thickness to work correctly? I honestly have no clue just some thoughts...

My 14 Road King has an OEM 6 row oil cooler which I replaced with a 10 row (not sure if it makes any difference though) ... anyway, for fun I always watch my oil temperature, its a learning thing for me, how this stuff works, I just find it interesting ... but I am no expert.

Much to my surprise the highest oil temperatures are at higher speeds, NOT slow speed riding when little air is going through the cooler.
The reason I point that out is many bikers in forums think (I used to think too) you need a fan on the oil cooler because at slow speeds there is very little air moving through the cooler and they are right, but the manufacturers KNOW this, the cooling is needed at HIGH speeds. My measured oil temperatures are ALWAYS higher at high speeds when the most air is moving through the cooler.
Example, came back from the SMOKY Mountains just yesterday, 200 miles of high speed 80 MPH riding on the interstate (90 + degrees outside) measured oil temperature was 257 degrees at the end of the trip. This trip was a HOT one, 900 miles of hot weather this year, except of course in the high mountain elevations. Did a run from our area to Cashiers NC across the mountains to Pigeon Forge TN.
My slow around town riding would be at least 20 degrees cooler.

There is one BIG exception to this and that is stuck in traffic conditions such as an accident or road construction, highest measured temperature I had was 275 degrees and an oil cooler fan would come in handy or engine fan, I did install an engine fan this year.

Anyway, all I am saying in the manufacturer has a reason for everything, and then they have to adapt and take into account all riding conditions, then come up with the best all around lubricants. In your case If I was in a cold climate I would run a 50 with no second thoughts, such as Mobile 1 or Amsoil motorcycle oil since they are "heavy" 50s

Anyone interested I will be sending a sample to Blackstone before the end of July, Ill be interested in this one, saw some really high oil temps on this oil. Will be changing it at the 3000 mile mark if I can get

 

[alarmguy]

Ps to the above post ...

Maybe by requiring Jaso MA they are just making sure you are using an oil approved by someone ?> I have no idea. ..
In order for a motor oil to meet any of the above mentioned JASO standards it must be at least of one of the following quality levels:

API SG, SH, SJ, SL, SM
ILSAC GF-1, GF-2, GF-3
ACEA A1/B1, A3/B3, A3/B4, A5/B5, C2, C3

Source, Click

 

[LoneRanger]

Yeah, good points on the oil temps. I do know Guzzi uses two oil pumps-- 2nd one is specifically to boost oil flow to/through the cooler.
Also might have seen where they have a fan behind the oil cooler too, but I could have that tidbit confused with another manufacturer.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Yeah, good points on the oil temps. I do know Guzzi uses two oil pumps-- 2nd one is specifically to boost oil flow to/through the cooler.
Also might have seen where they have a fan behind the oil cooler too, but I could have that tidbit confused with another manufacturer.


Fan is possible, for the first time, you can buy an optional fan for the oil coolers on the new Harley 107 engines that do not have water cooling. Since the new 107 do have oil channels around the valves to help cool the valve area.
I suspect based on your post the same would apply to Guzzi, actually sounds like a robust system.

 

[BigCahuna]

Do motorcycle manufacturers that are not japanese, require oils that meet japanese standards?. I haven't seen any motorcycle specific oil that even meets a API standard. Claiming to, and actually being tested and certified aren't the same thing.,,,

 

[SuperSalad]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
They may know something about the engine that you do not.

On our KTM LC4 engines, they recommend 10/60 despite the fact that it is water cooled and has roller rockers.

KTM LC4 engines are also marked for occasional rocker bearing or cam failure. I suspect this is why the recommendation for such a stout oil.


The KTM recommendation for 10W-60 was originally because of fuel dilution issues in the LC4. The issue was well addressed and solved, but I suspect that the 10W-60 recommendation had some economic benefits for Motorex and KTM and it didn't do any harm. So they continued recommending 10W-60 alongside the 10W-50 or 15W-50 oils which were the primary recommendations going forward even though it wasn't really necessary.

 

[barryh]

It's not just that Guzzi's are air cooled. They run hot oil temperatures, very hot and much hotter than airhead BMW's. I don't know why that is but it seems to me 10W60 is a sticking plater on a poorly designed cooling system.

 

[Atesz792]

I've read somewhere that they used to recommend 5w40 but after a few engine failures (maybe the aforementioned issues) they switched to 10w60.
Meguin / Megol makes a 10w60 JASO MA oil which supposedly is 100% PAO based (if one can believe their e-mail). It's not too expensive either.

 

[LoneRanger]

Originally Posted By: barryh
It's not just that Guzzi's are air cooled. They run hot oil temperatures, very hot and much hotter than airhead BMW's. I don't know why that is but it seems to me 10W60 is a sticking plater on a poorly designed cooling system.


Good reason not run a Grp III faux syn and run either PAO, ester, or ideally... an optimized PAO/Ester blend. --> Spectro Platinum 4 10W60 !!!

 

[barryh]

Oil temperature gauges seem to be popular with Guzzi owners. Lets hope this one was using the real deal synthetic.