Why Extended Drain Intervals Are A Bad Idea

[sir1900]

Originally Posted By: johnsmellsalot
My point is that it's not a good idea to leave oil in your engine longer than your supposed to. Overtime, oil gets contaminated with dirt and debris. That's why you have to change it. It doesn't matter if you use synthetic or not. It's still going to get dirty. The part I quoted says that if you do use synthetic oil, it still has to be changed at the same intervals.


If that is the case, then why would someone spend the extra $$$ to buy synthetic? With all due respect, I think you are buying into the propaganda that the manufacturers are promoting and that is, change your oil regardless if its synthetic or regular.

You need to head over to the used oil analysis section to compare and contrast regular vs synthetic.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: johnsmellsalot
I



I'm just dropping in this thread to say two things:

1) Very cool forum name!!
2) There is a HUGE difference between Extended Drains and Lack of Maintenance. Since you did not state this at all in your initial post, nor even clearly later on, you come across as ignorant. So catching up is about all you can do at this point, not dispensing advice to others.

 

[ernied]

what about mobil super?they say it protects your car for 5000 miles.

 

[yesthatsteve]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: johnsmellsalot
I



I'm just dropping in this thread to say two things:

1) Very cool forum name!!
2) There is a HUGE difference between Extended Drains and Lack of Maintenance. Since you did not state this at all in your initial post, nor even clearly later on, you come across as ignorant. So catching up is about all you can do at this point, not dispensing advice to others.


+1

HUGE difference between an extended oil drain as part of a regular maintenance regimen and, "Oh, it's October, maybe I should change the oil before winter."

As far as the earlier claim that 80% of all drivers meet the severe service requirements for their vehicles, that looks like another exaggeration cooked up by the quick-lube industry as the 3,000-mile oil change started contradicting more and more owners' manuals (and those newfangled "Oil Life Monitors" and such). I suspect a significant (but not a majority) of the car-owning population operates in severe service, but each manufacturer has its own criteria, and leaves it up to each owner to determine whether it applies to his or her vehicle. I've gladly taken on that responsibility.

A 3k interval (severe service according to my owner's manual) means I'm under my car every 6-7 weeks, and my driving habits don't necessitate it. Plus, a nagging back injury won't tolerate it. Over 70% of my mileage is highway or country roads in outer suburbia. I rarely idle or drive stop & go, and have 1-2 trips per week less than 10 miles between start-up. Based on what I've seen in the xB after 6 months of ownership, I could probably run Pennzoil conventional at 8-9k intervals and be just fine. But I don't.

My owner's manual indicates a 5k OCI under normal service, in order to keep the warranty in effect. My car hasn't been under warranty for about 70,000 miles, so that 5k is just a recommendation at this point. I'll keep my OCI conservative, but not wasteful. My wife's a little more anal than I am, and does her Ody at Honda's revised 7500-mile recommendation with a high mileage oil. Her driving habits are similar to mine, and after more than 200k of trouble-free use, I see no reason to change pattern now.

At the mileage my xB has reached (105k+), and the miles I drive each year (~22k), I'm not opposed to getting under the car 2 or 3 times a year to check wear items when I change a quality synthetic oil, and under the hood every couple of weeks or so to check fluid levels.

Back to the link in the original post: to think a gallon-a-minute coolant leak would have no bearing on other areas of a car's function is supreme ignorance or supreme stupidity. One of those two can be corrected, if the individual isn't too proud of it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: yesthatsteve

As far as the earlier claim that 80% of all drivers meet the severe service requirements for their vehicles, that looks like another exaggeration cooked up by the quick-lube industry as the 3,000-mile oil change started contradicting more and more owners' manuals (and those newfangled "Oil Life Monitors" and such). I suspect a significant (but not a majority) of the car-owning population operates in severe service, but each manufacturer has its own criteria, and leaves it up to each owner to determine whether it applies to his or her vehicle. I've gladly taken on that responsibility.

A 3k interval (severe service according to my owner's manual) means I'm under my car every 6-7 weeks, and my driving habits don't necessitate it. Plus, a nagging back injury won't tolerate it. Over 70% of my mileage is highway or country roads in outer suburbia. I rarely idle or drive stop & go, and have 1-2 trips per week less than 10 miles between start-up. Based on what I've seen in the xB after 6 months of ownership, I could probably run Pennzoil conventional at 8-9k intervals and be just fine. But I don't.

My owner's manual indicates a 5k OCI under normal service, in order to keep the warranty in effect. My car hasn't been under warranty for about 70,000 miles, so that 5k is just a recommendation at this point. I'll keep my OCI conservative, but not wasteful. My wife's a little more anal than I am, and does her Ody at Honda's revised 7500-mile recommendation with a high mileage oil. Her driving habits are similar to mine, and after more than 200k of trouble-free use, I see no reason to change pattern now.

At the mileage my xB has reached (105k+), and the miles I drive each year (~22k), I'm not opposed to getting under the car 2 or 3 times a year to check wear items when I change a quality synthetic oil, and under the hood every couple of weeks or so to check fluid levels.

Back to the link in the original post: to think a gallon-a-minute coolant leak would have no bearing on other areas of a car's function is supreme ignorance or supreme stupidity. One of those two can be corrected, if the individual isn't too proud of it.


Depends on where you live in the US of A. Try living on Long Island and commuting to Queens or NYC 5 days a week. How about a 15 mile drive taking 1.5 hours on a fair to good day. I'm sure there are plenty of other areas in the US of A that have similar driving conditions. I mentioned a place I'm familiar with, lots of soccer moms on LI too, making several 5 and 10 minute trips a day. That 80% number might not be so far off. I'm not saying a 3,000 mile OCI should be Gospel, but common sense should come into play. And I'll say it again, extended OCIs are not for everyone.

Merry Christmas!!!

 

[partspro]

I was of the opinion that it was the Viscosity Index Improvers in conventional oil which broke down and caused issues with piston rings and other engine components. Long chain polymers have no lubricating capability and can amount to a significant percentage dependent on oil weight. Hydro-cracked synthetics require few if any VII's and reach vital engine components more quickly during cold start.

With the ever increasing use of hydraulic tensioners, cam phasers etc the lack of hydraulic pressure not just lubrication becomes an increasing issue. Not a technical response but i think a quality synthetic is worth the money. On a side note if California has their way (and the other 49 follow) 3k changes will be 'illegal'

 

[virginoil]

Extended drain in vehicle not designed for it id a dumb idea, unless you do extensive used oil analysis to contractually monitor the condition of the oil/

If you are lucky enough to have an oil life monitor then follow its recommendations.

The topic of extended drains been debated on serveral occasions by BITOG members.

If you follow the OEMs when they extended oil intervals the first thing that is increased is engine sump/capacity. This what Holden (GM) Australia did for 3.8L Buick V6.

4.3L sump capacity 10000km or 6mths oil grade 20w50 1995-97
4.8L sump capacity 10000km or 6mths oil grade 10w30 1997-04
5.5L sump capacity 15000km or 9mths oil grade 10w30 2004-06

When Holden switched to 12months extended drains for the HFV6 3.6L engine in 2006 note the following:
6.5L sump capacity 15000km or 12mths oil grade 5w30 2006-onwards

The rationale adopted sort of gives you a clue.
a. Longer drains = bigger sump
b. To maintain concentration of contaminates below critical level ?
c. Affecting reaction in with seals, soft metals etc. ?

I am sure there other factors as well etc but these are just some of the physical mods made by the OEM to cope with the harsher and environment that the oil was to be subjected to.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: sir1900

If that is the case, then why would someone spend the extra $$$ to buy synthetic? With all due respect, I think you are buying into the propaganda that the manufacturers are promoting and that is, change your oil regardless if its synthetic or regular.

You need to head over to the used oil analysis section to compare and contrast regular vs synthetic.

Honda did not extend intervals when they switched to 0w20-- intervals remained the same. Same with Mazda. Moving to 0W20 (or synthetic for this matter) was done more for fuel economy and improved oil flow. If you check the VOA section you'll see that the starting TBN of synthetic and conventional oils are now very similar.

quote=partspro]I was of the opinion that it was the Viscosity Index Improvers in conventional oil which broke down and caused issues with piston rings and other engine components. Long chain polymers have no lubricating capability and can amount to a significant percentage dependent on oil weight. Hydro-cracked synthetics require few if any VII's and reach vital engine components more quickly during cold start.

With the ever increasing use of hydraulic tensioners, cam phasers etc the lack of hydraulic pressure not just lubrication becomes an increasing issue. Not a technical response but i think a quality synthetic is worth the money. On a side note if California has their way (and the other 49 follow) 3k changes will be 'illegal' [/quote]

Synthetic oils use viscosity index improvers as well-- just look at Toyota 0W20 and its super-high VII. Rumor is that not all VII are created equally but I have not seen any evidence of this either way.

 

[INTJ]

Originally Posted By: virginoil
Extended drain in vehicle not designed for it id a dumb idea, unless you do extensive used oil analysis to contractually monitor the condition of the oil/

If you are lucky enough to have an oil life monitor then follow its recommendations.

The topic of extended drains been debated on several occasions by BITOG members.

If you follow the OEMs when they extended oil intervals the first thing that is increased is engine sump/capacity. This what Holden (GM) Australia did for 3.8L Buick V6.

4.3L sump capacity 10000km or 6mths oil grade 20w50 1995-97
4.8L sump capacity 10000km or 6mths oil grade 10w30 1997-04
5.5L sump capacity 15000km or 9mths oil grade 10w30 2004-06

When Holden switched to 12months extended drains for the HFV6 3.6L engine in 2006 note the following:
6.5L sump capacity 15000km or 12mths oil grade 5w30 2006-onwards

The rationale adopted sort of gives you a clue.
a. Longer drains = bigger sump
b. To maintain concentration of contaminates below critical level ?
c. Affecting reaction in with seals, soft metals etc. ?

I am sure there other factors as well etc but these are just some of the physical mods made by the OEM to cope with the harsher and environment that the oil was to be subjected to.



Wow. 15k kilometers is a bit under 10,000 miles. 6 quarts for a 3.6 is a safe bet for the manufacturer and warranty considerations.

Generally if given a baseline of the vehicles chemistry signature via a(several) uao, you'd dump it accordingly.

Nothing esoteric with the extended drain interval concept on non-designed extended vehicles.

But I'd say with more hydraulic actuated components, such as "cam phasers," would necessitate to find the lower limit and shorten it a bit more..... they are problematic even with normal OCI's.

You wouldn't want deposit formations on the top deck here.

 

[virginoil]

I recall John Rowland former Fuchs Oil chief chemist saying to go a couple thousand Kms over or a couple months longer than the recommended OCI occasionally generally would not hurt anything. (perhaps short trips or hard driving maybe the exception)

In long drain with bigger sumps capacity the negative can be it takes longer for the oil to get to proper operating temperature due to the larger volume to heat which is the benefit of having smaller sumps with shorter OCIs.

Have a read of this link.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/interesting-article-from-fuchs-silkolene-chemist.116805/

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: virginoil
I recall John Rowland former Fuchs Oil chief chemist saying to go a couple thousand Kms over or a couple months longer than the recommended OCI occasionally generally would not hurt anything. (perhaps short trips or hard driving maybe the exception)

In long drain with bigger sumps capacity the negative can be it takes longer for the oil to get to proper operating temperature due to the larger volume to heat which is the benefit of having smaller sumps with shorter OCIs.

Have a read of this link.


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/interesting-article-from-fuchs-silkolene-chemist.116805/


I colored the key words in your statement. Occasionally= Once in a while, not always. Generally= means usually, sometimes, or maybe. There are some other words that can be used as well. He certainly didn't say in your quote, do it all the time under all conditions.


Spot on about larger sumps it does take longer to heat up more oil. So in a case where a car sees a lot of soccer mom use a larger sump might not be the best thing to have. Food for thought. While it can hold more contaminants, it also creates more by not coming up to temp and burning off excess fuel and moisture as an engine with a smaller sump would. There's always a trade off.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: johnsmellsalot
The part I quoted says that if you do use synthetic oil, it still has to be changed at the same intervals.


That's what the quick lube and oil company guys love to hear - people using oil at double the price for the same interval.

I presume you've noticed that European long drain specifications are for synthetic oils, not conventionals.

 

[Kestas]

My buddy (of german descent) followed the oil monitor on his 01 Mercedes SLK320. It essentially told him to change the oil at 13K intervals. I mildly chastized him for this, saying 13K was a bit too long, considering he drove the car hard. When the odometer reached 80K, he admitted that the engine started smoking a little.

 

[Durango]

Except for my wallet my personal opinion is I usually don't like to go beyond 6K OCI's cuz I afraid of oil sludging occuring. However car makers like BMW and the such go generally once per year OCI's it obvious to me these drastic changes are fine but they most probably give the engine an engine flushing. Take for instance "The Belstein System" where they use a light oil with a solvent to get all the sludge out.

Durango

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
My buddy (of german descent) followed the oil monitor on his 01 Mercedes SLK320. It essentially told him to change the oil at 13K intervals. I mildly chastized him for this, saying 13K was a bit too long, considering he drove the car hard. When the odometer reached 80K, he admitted that the engine started smoking a little.


However, they don't specify Pennzoil Conventional 5w30, either.

 

[partspro]

Thanks for the info on the VII's. This is a little anecdotal but in 1995 I bought a new BMW 530i (3 litre V8). It was my first vehicle with an oil change monitor. It always popped at +/- 10k and it freaked me. My son worked at the BMW dealership and was good friends with the BMW factory trained mechanics. They had torn down plenty of these engines (busted timing belts, valve hits piston). None of them observed sludge, wear or any other oil related issues when the owners followed the oil change monitor.

BTW, I wouldn't say that I drove the beamer really hard but I wasn't afraid of the rev limiter either. (the 530 was a stick which made it REALLY fun)

I don't believe that there is a one single answer to this question. Toyota's with the 3 liter and the VAG with the 1.8 turbo have had such wicked sludging issues that I'd want to change the oil really frequently.

 

[91344George]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Kestas
My buddy (of german descent) followed the oil monitor on his 01 Mercedes SLK320. It essentially told him to change the oil at 13K intervals. I mildly chastized him for this, saying 13K was a bit too long, considering he drove the car hard. When the odometer reached 80K, he admitted that the engine started smoking a little.


However, they don't specify Pennzoil Conventional 5w30, either.


Indeed, if you don't use the recommended oil spec it might negate the accuracy of the OLM. I'm sure MB expects the owner to FOLLOW THE OWNER'S MANUAL INSTRUCTIONS.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
My buddy (of german descent) followed the oil monitor on his 01 Mercedes SLK320. It essentially told him to change the oil at 13K intervals. I mildly chastized him for this, saying 13K was a bit too long, considering he drove the car hard. When the odometer reached 80K, he admitted that the engine started smoking a little.

What oil do he use ?

Strange to hear that the Merc OLM would not pickup on hard driving.

I guess if you thrash the [censored] out of the engine (without proper engine warm up etc) something has to give despite the best maintenance routine / oils available.

 

[Kestas]

It was changed either by the dealer or by me. That means either Mobil 1 0W-40 or Shell Rotella 5W-40.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
It was changed either by the dealer or by me. That means either Mobil 1 0W-40 or Shell Rotella 5W-40.


How are you certain that the issue was related to oil change intervals and wad not an issue that was inherent to the engine?