Why ??? Do we as consumer not demand more????UOA

[JohnBrowning]

Does anyone else think it is odd that some companies engines not just Toyota turn in great UOA results even on their factory fill but some take 50,000 or more to give a decent not good UOA! Now I do not profess to be a powertrain engineer but how bad of a combanation design,materials,machineing,surface finsh,etc..... do you have to have to take 20,000 or more miles to settle down. Their are some engines wich I will not mention here that many will make excuses for until it has 50,000 or more miles on it. Now while it might be normal for a given engine to toss a lot of wear metals for the first 50,000 miles as a norm that should not make it acceptable!

 

[Cutehumor]

most of the motoring public just gas up and drive. even the astute just go by oil consumption/engine noise. but I know what your mean, those big GM v8s in my sister tahoe and BIL avalanche spit out some copper

 

[454MAG]

Does it really matter what the UOA says if an engine design typically runs 200-300k miles ie GM V8s ? Todays complex engiines typically have other problems long before machining issues. EGR, Sludge, head gaskets. etc. It seems it would be a waste of money on mass produced engines to overkill the machine tolerances.

 

[Gary Allan]

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It seems it would be a waste of money on mass produced engines to overkill the machine tolerances.

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Well, it is an oddity that some manufacturers appear to conquer this as a matter of "normal" and others could care less ..or so it appears. Just what is it that allows others to do something that you appear to ignore (I'm sure there is capability)?

I guess it's a big step forward just getting random soda cans not to be discovered inside welded panels when a dealer finally finds the rattle ...or brake wires wrapped around a grounded screw. How much advancement do you want in 30 years

 

[cousincletus]

FWIW I have seen many a GM engine outlast a comparable Toyota. They also got better gas mileage, parts cost less, body holds up to rust better, and GM employs more Americans to boot.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

They might as well lock this thread now

 

[ThirdeYe]

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FWIW I have seen many a GM engine outlast a comparable Toyota. They also got better gas mileage, parts cost less, body holds up to rust better, and GM employs more Americans to boot.

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Yet GM is shipping a lot of their jobs to Mexico and Canada and Toyota is gaining a lot of ground right here in America and also employing lots of Americans in their newer American plants... my mom's GM plant got shut down a year or so ago, the Lansing, Michigan plant is closed, along with many other GM plants here in Michigan closing up, yet Toyota is employing more and more Americans. I wouldn't necessarily make generalizations about them holding up better to rust either, because i've seen MANY luminas/monte carlos/malibus where the paint is peeling right off of them, for no reason at all. The entire hood, roof, trunk is missing all of its paint. Poor paint job perhaps?

 

[Eddie]

My experience with GM V8s is they can run well for noly 30,000 miles or 150,000 miles. Same engine and same maintenence. So IMO it must be a lack of QC that gives GM the bad name.

 

[dailydriver]

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They might as well lock this thread now

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AGREED. But then again, one of yours started it, and for what purpose?? (hint, hint; disguised BASH maybe?). But at least he works for the Nippon Giant and admits it, so we understand the motavation for his "shilling", right?

 

[cousincletus]

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FWIW I have seen many a GM engine outlast a comparable Toyota. They also got better gas mileage, parts cost less, body holds up to rust better, and GM employs more Americans to boot.

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Yet GM is shipping a lot of their jobs to Mexico and Canada and Toyota is gaining a lot of ground right here in America and also employing lots of Americans in their newer American plants... my mom's GM plant got shut down a year or so ago, the Lansing, Michigan plant is closed, along with many other GM plants here in Michigan closing up, yet Toyota is employing more and more Americans. I wouldn't necessarily make generalizations about them holding up better to rust either, because i've seen MANY luminas/monte carlos/malibus where the paint is peeling right off of them, for no reason at all. The entire hood, roof, trunk is missing all of its paint. Poor paint job perhaps?

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...Yet GM by itself employs more Americans than all the foreign transplants combined. http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/scorecards.htm

 

[cousincletus]

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My experience with GM V8s is they can run well for noly 30,000 miles or 150,000 miles. Same engine and same maintenence. So IMO it must be a lack of QC that gives GM the bad name.

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Explain then how I got one to run well w/o anything other than routine maintenance for over 250K.

 

[brianl703]

I'm not convinced that UOAs mean much with regard to engine longetivity, outside of showing problems such as coolant or intake leaks (high silicon). I think that, right there, is the best application of a UOA. Not to figure out if an engine will last another 100K or another 200K.

 

[JohnBrowning]

I di not mention any brands that have poor numbers for a reason! I do not want this to be a bashing of any given company. I more or less wanted to hear ideas as to why so many people settle for less? Why so many people are content with mediocracy or have such low standards when it comes to their vechiles!

Their are more companies that have good UOA then those that have poor UOA. Look at Audi,Honda,Ford modulars V8's,BMW,Mercedes,Chryslers 4.7V8,3.7V6,Nissan VQ,Toyota etc......... Most of these companies engines are very consistent and throw very low wear numbers! How often do we hear anyone say that these makes need 50,000 miles before they are broken-in? Should we not make the UOA fromt he above makes the standards or should anything less then 150PPM be considered good?

 

[lt1man]

are you nuts?

 

[surfstar]

What about Honda and Copper?

$20 UOAs are held way too highly here. They're a hobby; entertaining. They are limited in what they can tell. Big things can be caught. Whether your engine will last 100,200 or 300k isn't likely to be seen by one.

 

[obbop]

Has Old Coot (tm) been in the typical daze and didn't notice or are those little "new" tags in each post new?

 

[Dick in Falls Church]

Maybe the better oils of today do a better job of slowing what used to be normal break-in?

 

[Black Bart]

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I more or less wanted to hear ideas as to why so many people settle for less? Why so many people are content with mediocracy or have such low standards when it comes to their vechiles!

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I have wondered the same thing.
A lot of people drive vehicles that I would not be caught dead behind the wheel of them
In the general topics they are talking about best truck and several mention how great their 1.7 is.
Anything powered by a engine that small isn't a truck it a imitation of a truck.
Why do they buy toy trucks when they could own a real truck.

 

[1sttruck]

"Now while it might be normal for a given engine to toss a lot of wear metals for the first 50,000 miles as a norm that should not make it acceptable!"

It should be a concern if UOA wear metals correlates to durability, and not a concern if it doesn't. I think that durability also needs to consider load as well as miles and/or time. My truck has a Cummins diesel, they don't seem to produce UOAs with low wear metals, but they do seem to last, especially considering the work that they often do.

Cummins notes that with gradual increase in loads that break in can be completed within 5k miles, but with light loads it can take over 20k miles. Good block rigidity, lots of bearing area, good oil flow, a large sump, use of HDEOs, and good cooling capacity seems to result in light bearing and ring loads provided the engine isn't lugged, which is evidently why break in can take awhile. I guess it's also why they tend to be durable.

 

[T-Keith]

Why are you assuming it is wear? Perhaps it's in their assembly lube, antisieze, lock-tite compound or other source? If the engine still last 500,000 miles who cares? How many engines have you had "wear out"? It just doesn't happen any more without major abuse.