Why do many DRY STARTS, when an oil filter lasts so long?

[geeeman]

Ray H...I tend to agree with you here...I have never had the oil pressure light stay on for more than about 3 seconds after an oil change.

And...your engine isn't exactly working hard at the idle speed it turning at right after starting.

And...the engine isn't made out of balsa wood either...ever see those drain the oil and run the engine ads...engines are really tough!

I think the dry start issue applies more to an engine running, say a 40 or 50w oil that hasn't been started for a week, at -40 below.

THEN you will have a dry start issue...maybe!

 

[Scali62]

I posted a similar topic recently, and I've learned this has been discussed here a few times before.
My point was a high quality filter might be better off left on through 2 oil changes { 6k miles }. Better for the engine & wallet.
What I might do if I decide to do this after thie second ARX treatment i'm currently into is remove & drain the few ounces of dirty oil in the filter then then put it back in service, priming the filter with new oil.
I believe knowing the filter has dirty oil in it is a big reason why many people dont do this ..

 

[Propflux01]

Another thing to consider is when oil is changes, it is (well, supposed to be) warm before drain. there is still ample lube on the cyl and pistons and bearings and such to pretty much negate the dry start for the little time that it takes for the light to go out.

 

[dickwells]

"ALL is a bold word". Some do, some don't."

Here is a tip for everyone, when you see a "bold word" check the words before and after it to see if they are modifiers such as "that I am familiar with" These are commonly known as "weasel words" in the fast paced world of complaint response. The statement could be that I am familiar with two cars or two hundred, thats why you should look in your manual and see what it says. I merely opened the possibility.

 

[dickwells]

"And add unburned fuel to that new oil
Find the relay/fuse/circuit and disable the injectors. Otherwise, don't bother! "

All the fuel injected cars I am familiar with disable the injectors when the acc. pedal is floored while cranking. This is normally used to clear a flooded engine but could be used just as easily to fill the oil system after a change.

 

[unDummy]

quote:

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Originally posted by dickwells:
"And add unburned fuel to that new oil
Find the relay/fuse/circuit and disable the injectors. Otherwise, don't bother! "

All the fuel injected cars I am familiar with disable the injectors when the acc. pedal is floored while cranking. This is normally used to clear a flooded engine but could be used just as easily to fill the oil system after a change.

---

"ALL is a bold word". Some do, some don't.
Most just hope that airflow helps remove the flooding issue that this method was designed for. It just allows unrestricted airflow.

Disabling crank/cam/ position sensor/tach lead/ will kill the injectors. But, at the risk of a SES/CEL light, the best option is read the owners manual for unflooding. If it doesn't mention the pedal to the floor, it doesn't disable the injectors.

 

[ex_MGB]

Excellent topic as I logged on this morning thinking about this as well. Just did two "winter season" oil changes yesterday. I've got a hydraulic floor jack with a "uni-body adapter" so I can get at the drain plug on all my vehicles in no time. However on three of my vehicles, two Mazdas and a Honda, the oil filter is by far the most miserable aspect of an oil change.

My gut feel is that on a broken in, well maintained engine, the oil filter is not doing much, if anything. I think the reason most car manufacturers specify changing out the oil filter each oil change is the same reason they went to 5W-20 oil, that is, the "environment". I think they (include the EPA et al in on this as well) figure a lot of people if they do their own oil change will not properly dispose of the used oil. Well, in the last 10 years there have been added a lot of nice little recycle centers behind shopping centers, each with a nice place to dispose of used oil in my area.

So, just as the heresy of using a light oil (to gain better mileage) was overcome via technology (better oil), I think we need to look hard at "extended oil filter" usage. I'd love to go 20k miles on a filter while changing the oil 2 or 3 times per year.

To paraphrase JFK, some people ask why, I ask why not. I need to see some numbers though. BITOG has gotten me away from 3k drains plus filter using Mobil 1 to three changes/year (spring/summer/fall). Now I'd like to go once a year oil filter change and twice a year (cars get 15k miles/yr average) oil change but cannot screw up the necessary courage at this point.

Maybe a filter with non-paper filtering medium would be necessary? How about measuring just what it is that is filtered by the oil filter and is trapped therein? In short, this area is perhaps where the next major break through in the art of the oil change will come with some real potential for "picking low hanging fruit".

[ November 28, 2003, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]

 

[Scali62]

With all the testing everyone does on this site with these great digital images & all, has anyone cut open a few filters after they were removed for 3k mile oil changes from a properly running vehicle ?
Seeing is believing.
I once cut open a filter that was in use for 3 k & it looked 98% new ..

 

[labman]

I have cut open a number of filters open after using them on engines in good condition. Truthfully there is not a lot of garbage in them. However the media is much darker than new. I figure this black is finely divided metal and silicas. We talk about filtering out 10 - 20 micron particles. I can't see individual particles that small. A collection of them entrained in the media would give the black color I see. I change every 3 months. I am sure that often it is less than 1K for my truck, but sometimes reaches 7K for my car.

The canister on my Cavalier is easier to change than many spin ons, and my truck isn't too bad. Using Pennzoil dino, the 2 changes run less than $25 even with the rip off $7 element for the car. I keep hanging around here because I am open to new ideas and will change if convinced. Even before I found this board, I decided Fram wasn't the best substitute for the oddball AC filter I couldn't find.

 

[S2000driver]

ex_MGB, I agree with your observations.

Understanding exactly how we our cars, being able to inspect the condition of the oil and crankcase is very key to my feeling confortable with extended OCI and OFCI. Short/severe intervals are supposed to catch all the worst stuff that can happen to the engine/oil. Like the car being out of tune, excess wear, sludge, etc. If you have good knowledge about cars and keep your vehicles running top notch and stay away from short trips, these things won't be a concern. This is my situation.

One other related item is what really happens when a filter goes into bypass. I believe that a certain percentage of unfiltered oil goes past the media, without any "trapped" dirt being swept up with it. Even with the bypass valve opening, it is sustained by a pressure differential and therefore oil is still flowing through the media and there is no chance of dirt backwash.

I believe that a filter in the middle of it's life is probably working better than a new filter. Furtheremore, if the car is no self destructing, any unfiltered oil is so similar in content of suspended particles to filtered oil that there is no meaningful difference.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ex_MGB:

My gut feel is that on a broken in, well maintained engine, the oil filter is not doing much, if anything. I think the reason most car manufacturers specify changing out the oil filter each oil change is the same reason they went to 5W-20 oil, that is, the "environment". I think they (include the EPA et al in on this as well) figure a lot of people if they do their own oil change will not properly dispose of the used oil.
...
So, just as the heresy of using a light oil (to gain better mileage) was overcome via technology (better oil), I think we need to look hard at "extended oil filter" usage. I'd love to go 20k miles on a filter while changing the oil 2 or 3 times per year.
...
Maybe a filter with non-paper filtering medium would be necessary? How about measuring just what it is that is filtered by the oil filter and is trapped therein? In short, this area is perhaps where the next major break through in the art of the oil change will come with some real potential for "picking low hanging fruit".

---

 

[Scali62]

Labman, I agree with you on the Frams & always being open to new ideas one may pick up from the BITOG board as well..
I picked up 3 Mitsubishi filters the other day @ $8.50 each, theyre made in Japan & are the same as the Toyota filters I believe, good quality. My next oil change I'm going to keep my new Mitsu. filter on through 2 3k mile changes & then I'm going to buy a digital camera { way overdue } & cut the sucker open & post the picts.

I really believe it " may be " better for the vehicle to do it this way but I'm looking foward to see how the filter looks after 6k & 2 changes on my 72k mile Mitsubishi engine.

 

[SHOZ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary:
Do you have an alarm or some sort of ignition disable, you could crank the engine for 10 seconds first to prime the filter, then start.

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My two Taurus's are like this but not my Festivas. The Festiva has a horizontal filter and no matter what kind id put on they will drain down over night. Doesn't appear to harm the little engine though.

[ November 28, 2003, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: SHOZ ]

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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I say if a typical good quality oil filter is supposed to last as long as 20,000 miles according to the manufacturer, why change it every 3,000 like people insist?

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I can't buy the "blind" interval method. I did a UAO on my 9.5 quart 9000 mile Mobil 1 oil change and found it to be all but shot by the TBN #s. This was not too far out of the 7500 mile manufacturer's interval ..and I have two filters (hence the added capacity). This included an intermediate filter change (two 2 quart filters). This is also a daily highway driver (50 mile round trip daily commute).

I just did a 10k Delvac 1 oil change (no make up or filter changes) and am submitting the sample next week. I fear that it too is going to show that the oil is shot at this drain interval.

I've just altered my dual mount to accept the Amsoil Bypass filter. I hope that this will finally allow me to truly extend my drain intervals.

quote:

---

has anyone cut open a few filters after they were removed for 3k mile oil changes from a properly running vehicle ?
Seeing is believing.

---

What I'd like to see is someone weigh a filter that has been in service only a few hours (drained) and compare it to one that was in service for 5000 miles. This should REALLY tell you what you've pulled out of the oil. The media should be just as saturated with oil and the difference should be the trapped suspended particles.

 

[ex_MGB]

A good test in regards to the oil filter service life is to do just what is done in an industrial setting in regards to a filter; measure the "delta P", that is, the difference in pressure between the oil into the filter and out of the filter.

The degree to which the new filter "delta P" changes over time, that is, restricts flow, would indicate to what degree the filter's useful life has been compromised.

Somehow, there needs to be a consensus around what amount of the percent increase in "delta P" is acceptable. To enable this, perhaps it would be necessary to get corresponding UOA's on the oil and ppm of the wear metals? It might also be interesting to add another variable, that is, use of a magnetic oil drain plug (which I just put in on my Miata)

Personally, if I can get comfortable with extended OFCI's, I'd like to "bypass" the bypass filter installation

It's sort of surprising there is not more info out there on this subject. I suspect beyond simple environmental considerations, there is a certain desire by the manufacturers to steer the consumer towards the dealership service department. Not that I see anything wrong with that for the average Joe.

[ November 29, 2003, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]

 

[Darryl]

Oh come on, is there anything better than working on your ride on a Saturday morning?

The main reason I work on my own stuff is the feeling both during and after the work is completed.

Without a 3,000 mile oil & filter change, and a 20,000 mile plug, wires, and cap & rotor swap, what the hell would I do with myself?

If I think it runs better,
It runs better.


Darryl

 

[ex_MGB]

I seem to go from hobby to hobby. I'm getting tired of car maintenance.

I'm a bit reluctant to change oil filters three times a year on five vehicles when I can get by with just once a year oil filter changes. I don't think that after an engine has 20k miles the oil filter does anything if you were to swap out the Mobil 1 oil every 7500 miles..

Hmmm...rather than risk an internal filter failure (perhaps that's the higher engine probability of damage cause in such a scenario contra actual particle entrapment), I wonder if there's not a market for a "dummy" filter (just a sturdy case, no filter media) you never change to use after the warranty expires

Is the Honda Element's 20k mile oil filter unique in any way?

[ November 30, 2003, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]

 

[S2000driver]

Here's more specifics for the 2003 2.4 Element maintenance schedule:

NORMAL-
Engine oil: 10,000 miles or 1 year, WCF
Oil Filter: 20,000 miles or 1 year, WCF

SEVERE-
Engine oil: 5,000 miles or 6 months, WCF
Oil Filter: 10,000 miles or 1 year, WCF

For comparison, here is the schedule for the 2002 S2000, which happens to be the same as the 1999 CR-V.:

NORMAL-
Engine oil: 7,500 miles or 1 year, WCF
Oil Filter: 15,000 miles or 1 year, WCF

SEVERE-
Engine oil: 3,750 miles or 6 months, WCF
Oil Filter: 3,750 miles or 6 months, WCF

I have updated my schedule as follows
(Mostly because I like 5K intervals following what the odometer shows)

Element- Synthetic and Filter every 10,000 miles.

s2000- Synthetic and Filter every 5,000 miles.

CRV- Dino every 5,000 miles; oil filter every 10,000 miles

Does anybody think this is a better plan?(compared to above, miles instead of time)

 

[ex_MGB]

I'd change the new Element's oil every 5k as well as filter till it got to 20k miles. I'd also probably ignore the Honda advice to leave in the break-in oil and change oil plus filter ar 500 miles, then again at 2500 miles, then start 5k on syn oil.

At 20k, filter up to 20k/yearly and syn every 7500. 10k OCI is a bit rich for my blood. But hey, what do I know?

And, of course, it would be a stick and I'd have Redline in the transaxle at 500 miles with 30k changes thereafter.

 

[Jonathan]

I joined today and look forward to reading interesting comments, theories, facts.
May I offer a website apropos the topic of oil change intervals, filter changes, synthetic oils?
This site describes an ongoing test of Mobile 1. The results after almost a year and 18,000 miles is very eye-opening. Suggested reading:
http://oilstudy.spacebears.com
The testing appears to be quite scientific. As I said, the results are eye-opening!

Jonathan

 

[Sumerduckman]

I was doing the same intervals on my wife's '01 Civic ( 5000 mi w/ 5/20 Havoline, 10,000mi OEM filters)because the filter was such a PIA. The Honda engines burn so clean, and the little filter on the Civic held about 4 tablespoons of oil anyway, I figured it shouldhave no problems going 10000 mi. She put over 25k miles a year on that poor litle thing, and just traded it on a new Camry.Which is a breeze to change. Filter in the front.