Why add an oil additive? A thought about...

[Viggen]

Originally Posted By: Quest
Why? It's psychological!

People have different mentalities on this subject but mainly 2 real ones at play (granted that there's absolutely nothing wrong with their automobile/engine):

(a) to get that "feel-good" sensation. North American consumerism comprised of a lot of short-term bursts of psychological satisfaction (that "feel-good" sensation coming from spending money on things that may not work afterall).Partly comes from the urge for "immediate gratification".

(b) a lot of armchair scientist, conspiracy theorists, etc. figured it all out that they can better the automobile manufacturer's engineering+R&D team works (which costs the company a lot of mullah) by adding this "miracle" elixir to their already standardised/standards boards approved motor oil to make it even better.

Simple question requires simple answer.

Q.

p.s. I no longer falls for the boutique motor oil, citing that (a) even though those certified brand name motor oil sold in N.A. are composed to a price point (to some folks: not high performance enough); truth of the matter is, it still passed many manufacturers tests and boards standards for certifications and are far more consistent in performance than those motor oils bought in some other parts of the developing world. Also: unless you have some sort of exotic, hand built cars that would require special formulated motor oil; generally speaking, consumer grade automobiles are massed produced to provide a predictable performance and reliability so long as the lubricant used meets/exceeds their test standards.

I'd certainly would not spend the mullah for boutique motor oil on my Honda, which is just a mass-produced vehicle afterall.


Winnah! LOL.

Very good observations!

 

[PontiacFan]

Originally Posted By: Molakule

Yes, we could make superduper formulated oils with exotic base oils and loads of additives, but the guy on the street could not afford nor would be willing to buy.


You bring up a good point, we have Lubro-Moly on the PROTECTION side since some oil's are tending to get away from Moly, of course there are other oil's that have lots of Moly in them, but they are more expensive, Redline is an oil that has quite a bit of Moly, but it is expensive.

We have MMO on the cleaning side, then again there are oil's from Pennzoil that claim they do some cleaning, or they will keep an engine clean, they may be onto something.

I believe when OCI's are extended under certain driving conditions, like short trip driving, then certain oil additives might be necessary. JMO

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
I believe when OCI's are extended under certain driving conditions, like short trip driving, then certain oil additives might be necessary. JMO


That additive might be a special demulsifier or anti-rust/metal additive but you won't get that over the counter.

Besides, all fully formulated oils alreading have these additives in them. Shorter OCI's may be needed if this is the case.

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Just keep in mind the synthetic oil you get in Europe is not the same as it is here. The stuff we get is made for the most part to a price point and the synthetic would not be allowed to say synthetic on the bottle in most cases if they peddled the formula in Europe, it would be oil from synthetic basis or semi synthetic.

Euro synthetic is labelled synthetic or full synthetic and IMO need nothing at all added to them to operate in high demand conditions.
I came to the conclusion many years ago that these additives when sold in Europe are sold to enhance the performance of less expensive oils simply because of the cost of full synthetic oils.
Most of the wear test for these type of product i have seen done in Europe are with some sort of less expensive or obsolete spec oils.

Remember the average American is outraged at 30 Euros for 5 qts of synthetic oil, no way will they pay 75-100 euros.
So the oil companies used a legal loophole to call semi synthetic "synthetic" and they market it as such.
There is no comparison to their real synthetic offerings.
Bottom line is they have pulled off a huge con job with the full blessing of the American legal system.

If you are using a Synthetic oil leave the wizards in a bottle on the shelf if you are using anything less then yes they may be of some benefit but at the and of the day you are just trying to turn a dog into a fox.

Getting flack jacket and asbestos suit on now! LOL


Some excellent points made there.

Having said that, I noticed the OP has mentioned MoS2 in their post. MoS2 is an anti-friction additive that uses oil as a carrier fluid, not only in an engine but gears and differentials as well. While it does nothing to change the chemical makeup of the oil, it smoothens out the rougher surfaces of metals inside the engine to provide for an even surface.

That said, to the best of my knowledge, organic moly is mostly used in additive packages (I could be wrong), and Liqui-Moly's Low Friction MoS2 10W-40 is the only lubricant I know of that has MoS2 in its formulation.

 

[Trav]

I have seen some head to head comparisons between U.S. so called synthetic and Euro synthetic in real world driving.

A few friends and i often rode with some American friend with the same bikes as we had (large water cooled sport bikes).
The riding we did was punishing on the machines and tires, we used RS 10w-60 motor cycle oil they used a major brand 15w-40 they bought from the PX, both were supposedly synthetics.

No additives other than what in the oil was used because of wet clutches and shared lube duties with the transmission.

Observations..

The bikes running the U.S. oil had to have frequent valve adjustments, had rough shifting after a short time.
One bike had a total cam failure after 20K the other was showing signs of pitting.
Cam chain tensioners and chains were sloppy and getting loud.
Under the valve cover there was varnish and deposits beginning to form, performance and compression (150-165lb) was dropping off at 50K.

The Euro oil fed bikes needed no adjustment whatsoever in 50K (same engine), it was checked at manufacturers specified intervals. Shifting remained smooth throughout the OCI.
No cam chain or tensioner issues.
Spotless under the valve cover, it could be described as new looking.
Compression remained 180lb on all 4 (new spec was 182+- 29lb).
No loss of performance or compression even at 160K Km.

Draw your own conclusions but i don't believe any additive in a bottle could have improved the performance of the Euro oils, although it may have in the U.S. product.

 

[vo_marz]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I have seen some head to head comparisons between U.S. so called synthetic and Euro synthetic in real world driving.

A few friends and i often rode with some American friend with the same bikes as we had (large water cooled sport bikes).
The riding we did was punishing on the machines and tires, we used RS 10w-60 motor cycle oil they used a major brand 15w-40 they bought from the PX, both were supposedly synthetics.

No additives other than what in the oil was used because of wet clutches and shared lube duties with the transmission.

Observations..

The bikes running the U.S. oil had to have frequent valve adjustments, had rough shifting after a short time.
One bike had a total cam failure after 20K the other was showing signs of pitting.
Cam chain tensioners and chains were sloppy and getting loud.
Under the valve cover there was varnish and deposits beginning to form, performance and compression (150-165lb) was dropping off at 50K.

The Euro oil fed bikes needed no adjustment whatsoever in 50K (same engine), it was checked at manufacturers specified intervals. Shifting remained smooth throughout the OCI.
No cam chain or tensioner issues.
Spotless under the valve cover, it could be described as new looking.
Compression remained 180lb on all 4 (new spec was 182+- 29lb).
No loss of performance or compression even at 160K Km.

Draw your own conclusions but i don't believe any additive in a bottle could have improved the performance of the Euro oils, although it may have in the U.S. product.



synthetic is a marketing term in the US

Not so in Europe,

its more of a scientific term and will remain so unless stated imho.

US oils, the only oils that i know of that doesnt have the G3+/XVHI are Redline and Amsoil MCF. Its listed on their MSDS, hows that for credibility and reference? ^^

A good oil base with cr@ppy additives is just as bad as a so called "synthetic" G3+/XVHI that has a robust additive, both have weak spots overall and maybe even the same price which really sucks for the uneducated customer.

I'll stick with a robust synthetic (pao/ester/combi) with a proven additive pack based on UOA's posted on this forum.

just my 2c .

 

[Loobed]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule


Again I ask,

1) what chemical component do you think we formulators leave out in order to cause you to buy after-market additives,

and 2) what perceived problem(s) are you trying to fix?



1) MOS2

2) Money burning a hole in my pocket

I agree with using an off the shelf name brand oil. I just like MOS2: 1/3 to 1/2 every oil change.

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: vo_marz
synthetic is a marketing term in the US

Not so in Europe,

its more of a scientific term and will remain so unless stated imho.

US oils, the only oils that i know of that doesnt have the G3+/XVHI are Redline and Amsoil MCF. Its listed on their MSDS, hows that for credibility and reference? ^^

A good oil base with cr@ppy additives is just as bad as a so called "synthetic" G3+/XVHI that has a robust additive, both have weak spots overall and maybe even the same price which really sucks for the uneducated customer.

I'll stick with a robust synthetic (pao/ester/combi) with a proven additive pack based on UOA's posted on this forum.

just my 2c .


With the exception of Germany, Group III products are actually now sold in Europe as synthetics (as I've recently come to find out). Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40, Q8 Formula Excel 5W-40 and even much of Castrol's Edge series are described as "HC-Synthese" or Group III products.

When looking at an oil, it is important to look at the complete package - i.e. the base oil and the add pack. Group III products are just as capable nowadays, thanks to modern technology. In automotive applications, base oils actually matters little, and it's the add pack that makes the product.

 

[vo_marz]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Originally Posted By: vo_marz
synthetic is a marketing term in the US

Not so in Europe,

its more of a scientific term and will remain so unless stated imho.

US oils, the only oils that i know of that doesnt have the G3+/XVHI are Redline and Amsoil MCF. Its listed on their MSDS, hows that for credibility and reference? ^^

A good oil base with cr@ppy additives is just as bad as a so called "synthetic" G3+/XVHI that has a robust additive, both have weak spots overall and maybe even the same price which really sucks for the uneducated customer.

I'll stick with a robust synthetic (pao/ester/combi) with a proven additive pack based on UOA's posted on this forum.

just my 2c .


With the exception of Germany, Group III products are actually now sold in Europe as synthetics (as I've recently come to find out). Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40, Q8 Formula Excel 5W-40 and even much of Castrol's Edge series are described as "HC-Synthese" or Group III products.

When looking at an oil, it is important to look at the complete package - i.e. the base oil and the add pack. Group III products are just as capable nowadays, thanks to modern technology. In automotive applications, base oils actually matters little, and it's the add pack that makes the product.


not on my setup because of flashpoint concerns.
Im on an air cooled bike ...
G34/G3+ never have flashpoints higher than G4/G5 oils...

anyway thanks for the europe update, i greatly appreciate it!!

 

[CourierDriver]

watch this www.nomorfriction.com u decide.