Why add an oil additive? A thought about...

[Massimo_A]

Why add an oil additive?

My doubt is following:
Now take an oil at random, for example, Mobil 1 0w40.
I expect that this oil is carefully formulated an balanced to run into ours engine. Ok...

Now, adding an oil additive like Ceratec, Zddp, etc... could it change the chemistry of the oil ?!
If the top oils like Castrol, Mobil, etc..., are perfectly balanced, there any reason to adding extra Boron or Mos2 (or another antiwear sobtance) into the oil?

An oil has determinate quantity of antiwear molecule, a quantity originating from years of study and works in lab....the alteration of this quantity (caused adding an oil additive) is a good thing?!

And if the response is : "yes is a good thing", why the main oil companies do not add extra quantity of these additives into their formulations?
If for example Mobil 1 contains X number of Mos2 molecules (it's an example) and i add an additives based on Mos2, i will increase the primary and original X number to Y (with Y>>X), so, at this point, if is a really a GREAT advantage, why Mobil 1 for example do not contains originally the Y number of Mos2 molecules?

 

[demarpaint]

This topic gets beaten a lot here. If you honestly believe the oil company gave you the very best possible oil, and didn't blend oil to a certain price point [maybe with cost cutting in mind] then there is no reason in the world to add anything to it. OTOH if you think adding ZDDP, moly, or something to aid in engine cleanup then adding something to the oil would be appealing to you. Some people have faith in the oil companies and the products they sell, others feel there could be room for improvement. It's all about what makes you feel better. Makes for great discussion/argument it just depends on which side of the bed you climbed out of. JMO

 

[TTK]

I believe there are very few, if any,additives that will actually improve a good quality motor oil for most drivers and cars. Under certain circumstance or conditions an additive may be called for. Judging when that occurs is difficult. The only oil additive that I trust is Lubegard Bio-Tech with the liquid wax esters in it, but I only buy it when it is on a super sale.
I don't believe a good quality motor oil is the best motor oil that a company can produce....price must be a factor in their decision of how far to go to make the oil the best it can be.

 

[widman]

Adding additives to a certified oil is like going into the most expensive restaurant in town and adding a bottle of salt to your food before you even taste it.

The engine can't talk for you. You need the tests that are run over time. Yes, there are formulations that give less wear - at the expense of carbon and sludge. There are formulas that give you less carbon and sludge - at the expense of wear. So the approved formulations pass what the engine manufacturers consider the best balance.

I cover some of these in my oil paper. Aftermarket additives are sold for one primary purpose. To make money.

I'll make an exception for an occasional use of AutoRx (not "maintenance dose") or an ATF conditioner.

 

[Trav]

Just keep in mind the synthetic oil you get in Europe is not the same as it is here. The stuff we get is made for the most part to a price point and the synthetic would not be allowed to say synthetic on the bottle in most cases if they peddled the formula in Europe, it would be oil from synthetic basis or semi synthetic.

Euro synthetic is labelled synthetic or full synthetic and IMO need nothing at all added to them to operate in high demand conditions.
I came to the conclusion many years ago that these additives when sold in Europe are sold to enhance the performance of less expensive oils simply because of the cost of full synthetic oils.
Most of the wear test for these type of product i have seen done in Europe are with some sort of less expensive or obsolete spec oils.

Remember the average American is outraged at 30 Euros for 5 qts of synthetic oil, no way will they pay 75-100 euros.
So the oil companies used a legal loophole to call semi synthetic "synthetic" and they market it as such.
There is no comparison to their real synthetic offerings.
Bottom line is they have pulled off a huge con job with the full blessing of the American legal system.

If you are using a Synthetic oil leave the wizards in a bottle on the shelf if you are using anything less then yes they may be of some benefit but at the and of the day you are just trying to turn a dog into a fox.

Getting flack jacket and asbestos suit on now! LOL

 

[Quest]

Why? It's psychological!

People have different mentalities on this subject but mainly 2 real ones at play (granted that there's absolutely nothing wrong with their automobile/engine):

(a) to get that "feel-good" sensation. North American consumerism comprised of a lot of short-term bursts of psychological satisfaction (that "feel-good" sensation coming from spending money on things that may not work afterall).Partly comes from the urge for "immediate gratification".

(b) a lot of armchair scientist, conspiracy theorists, etc. figured it all out that they can better the automobile manufacturer's engineering+R&D team works (which costs the company a lot of mullah) by adding this "miracle" elixir to their already standardised/standards boards approved motor oil to make it even better.

Simple question requires simple answer.

Q.

p.s. I no longer falls for the boutique motor oil, citing that (a) even though those certified brand name motor oil sold in N.A. are composed to a price point (to some folks: not high performance enough); truth of the matter is, it still passed many manufacturers tests and boards standards for certifications and are far more consistent in performance than those motor oils bought in some other parts of the developing world. Also: unless you have some sort of exotic, hand built cars that would require special formulated motor oil; generally speaking, consumer grade automobiles are massed produced to provide a predictable performance and reliability so long as the lubricant used meets/exceeds their test standards.

I'd certainly would not spend the mullah for boutique motor oil on my Honda, which is just a mass-produced vehicle afterall.

 

[addyguy]

To keep it simple, I simply don't believe any aftermarket oil additives will hurt an engine, so there is no harm in using them if you 'think' they will help.

Will they help? Personally, I think they do, a bit. That's just my personal take on them. How much is an open, endless debate.

I used to use additves a lot in my cars. These days, I just don't bother, to save money. The only exception is if they are really, really cheap, like the $2 bottle of Fram Oil Treatment i bought to use in my old Cavalier, or the $4 can of wynn's engine tune up i add to new cars to clean them out a bit.

 

[hate2work]

Personally I think adding things like zmax or ceratec to engine oil is a waste of money. Additives like those are designed to coat the cylinder walls, or even penetrate the metal to provide more protection, etc. Pure bunk, IMO.

The only engine oil additives I believe in are the cleaning additives, such as MMO or Kreen.

As far as moly and/or zinc goes, there are specialty oils that contain higher amounts, and these are beneficial in certain severe driving conditions such as racing or track use and/or with specific engines that require extra anti-wear agents for cams, but not really needed for everyday driving with everyday cars.

 

[Artem]

I've never been the type of person to buy cheap stuff. If it costs $3 per bottle (taking into account the cost of manufacturing the product, shipping it to the store, the store making a small profit as well as the manufacturing company making a profit) it's most likely urine in a bottle, (freakin kiddy sensor) IMO, since you're left with like $0.75 worth of actual product that your money has bought. I don't trust that pocket change to do anything meaningful in the engine.

I've never been the type to add anything into the oil and run it for any extended period of type. I've used a few quick engine flushes back in the day and that's pretty much it.

Used some Z-Max that i bought on sale but i'd never buy it at full price (over $30 for an oil & fuel additive) I'm sure it works though at the price, or its just a really expensive scam.

The way i see it, if you maintain your engine properly, you shouldn't NEED to add any additives. A good quality oil should take care of all of your engine's needs.

If you have sludge build up, you need more then some urine in a bottle to help you.

 

[chubbs1]

Originally Posted By: Quest
Why? It's psychological!

People have different mentalities on this subject but mainly 2 real ones at play (granted that there's absolutely nothing wrong with their automobile/engine):

(a) to get that "feel-good" sensation. North American consumerism comprised of a lot of short-term bursts of psychological satisfaction (that "feel-good" sensation coming from spending money on things that may not work afterall).Partly comes from the urge for "immediate gratification".

(b) a lot of armchair scientist, conspiracy theorists, etc. figured it all out that they can better the automobile manufacturer's engineering+R&D team works (which costs the company a lot of mullah) by adding this "miracle" elixir to their already standardised/standards boards approved motor oil to make it even better.

Simple question requires simple answer.

Q.

p.s. I no longer falls for the boutique motor oil, citing that (a) even though those certified brand name motor oil sold in N.A. are composed to a price point (to some folks: not high performance enough); truth of the matter is, it still passed many manufacturers tests and boards standards for certifications and are far more consistent in performance than those motor oils bought in some other parts of the developing world. Also: unless you have some sort of exotic, hand built cars that would require special formulated motor oil; generally speaking, consumer grade automobiles are massed produced to provide a predictable performance and reliability so long as the lubricant used meets/exceeds their test standards.

I'd certainly would not spend the mullah for boutique motor oil on my Honda, which is just a mass-produced vehicle afterall.


I think you said it all...so true...everything.

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: Quest


I'd certainly would not spend the mullah for boutique motor oil on my Honda, which is just a mass-produced vehicle afterall.


What does the type of vehicle you own have to do with boutique oils?

If your driving style/conditions call for higher quality oils, who cares if its a Ford Fiesta.

Or just its a feel good thing like you said.

 

[tig1]

M1 does not reccomend adding additives to their oil. Here is a link.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Using_Additives_Motor_Oil.aspx

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: tig1
M1 does not reccomend adding additives to their oil. Here is a link.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Using_Additives_Motor_Oil.aspx



No oil company recommends an additive. Forget about the pro's and cons, that's a debate we'll never solve. Look at it from a business POV, some additives are added by the qt, a qt could cost an oil company 20-25% of an oil sale for every car on the road, each OCI. Big $$$$$.

 

[OldCowboy]

Quest is exactly right. It's psychological. Note all the "I believe", "I think", "IMHO", etc. comments. With the exception of those few cases where an oil modifier might be beneficial, under normal passenger car operating conditions, additives do no good and may actually do harm, given the possibility of an adverse chemical reaction with the additive pack intrinsic to the oil in question.

 

[vo_marz]

IMHO

I ride hard,my clutch engadges at 6500RPM and i hit the CDI 9500RPM limit fairly often on big turns.

"boutique oils" do make a big difference for ny butt dyno, my throttle is at least 0.5 S a turn quicker than dino oil.

X1R and BIN works crazy good for uphill climbs IMHO.

air cooled and no oil filter on my bike, oil have to take alot of stuff in for the interval between OCI's.

thats just my 2c.

 

[Quest]

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/graemlins/grin2.gif[/IMG]

Or just its a feel good thing like you said.

Hexk! I did own Ford Festiva at one point in time (slightly planed head, polished ports, etc. for slightly "tricked" SCCA stock class slalom racing + regular street travelling (from pt A to pt B).

I've used syn from Gp 3 to Gp 5 in many of my owned/operated vehicles in the past (incl. my babied Mazda B6 block in my 323), but with rigid OCI and maintenance, I gradually fall off the "boutique" oil bandwagon, realising that proper viscosity and brand name (API/ILSAC certified brand name OTC oils for gasoline engines) motor oil, most engines are capable of over 200,000miles of worry-free service and before you knew it: your automobile body starts to rot away sooner then the engine.

No additives added in oil or gas , never believe in doing so to a properly/regularly maintained and serviced engines (unless there are issues that require attention to begin with).

Also: I'm still actively maintaining a small fleet of automobiles (recently added my 78yr old neighbour's 02 Legacy L into my maintenance fleet) with over 1 million kms cumulative, and no additives into any of these vehicles over these many years w/o issues, then tell me: if thse OTC oil additives aren't walletburner that gives you that psychological "feel-good" with no actual benefits, then what is it?

My 2c's worth.

Q.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
I'd certainly would not spend the mullah for boutique motor oil on my Honda, which is just a mass-produced vehicle afterall.




Why would any "normal" driver in N.A.?
But you would if you could actually drive the car at constant high speeds and RPM's like 5-6k RPM for hours on end.
Conditions which some Euro countries drive mass produced every day cars at every single day.

In N.A. with 65-70 mph the oil sold here is adequate for the use every day vehicles see.
The OP lives in Italy where very high spec oils are available as the norm because their driving conditions warrant it.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: Trav
But you would if you could actually drive the car at constant high speeds and RPM's like 5-6k RPM for hours on end.
Conditions which some Euro countries drive mass produced every day cars at every single day.

In N.A. with 65-70 mph the oil sold here is adequate for the use every day vehicles see.
The OP lives in Italy where very high spec oils are available as the norm because their driving conditions warrant it.



point taken.

Mind you though: while attending collage about 1000kms away from home, and also many, many summer days working on the other parts of the country, I did a lot of Xross country long distance driving in small engined vehicles: from 1L 3cyl suzukis to Ford Festivas (Mazda 121 with B3 blocks), to Mazda323 with B6 blocks, etc. or sometimes Corollas (carpooling, driver takes turns to drive/rest), so long-distance, 3000+rpm driving (small engines, even my current fit runs @ 3000rpm @ 100kms on 5th gear, go figure) is not uncommon to me.

I also drove VW rabbits in the past for days at a time, crossing a few states to get from point A to point B, like a long-haul driver.

So, to me, extended engine run times on motor oil with engine revving over 3k rpm is not foreign to me, esp. when travelling across the Rockies or certain parts of Montana or Wyoming where hilly terrains put more strain onto the small engines.

still, not needing any boutique oils in my case.

Perhaps it is true in certain parts of Europe where extended OCI, etc. where it warrants a more "robust" motor oil (such as "true syn", Gp4 or 5, etc.) but then again: don't forget that Europeans have different requirements and motor lubricant requirements that best meets their needs, and whatever applies to them may not apply to NA somehow, in some ways...

Q.

 

[panthermike]

I believe in few oil adds. LG Biotech, MMO, and LM Mos2. Most recently, I've tried Mos2. It definately provides smoother/quieter operation in my experience. Besides, its Moly, just a different form.

There's some UOA's here w/ decreased wear when using Mos2.

But I agree that 99% of additives are marketing [censored].

 

[Ken2]

Two reasons to put additives into motor oil--
-- Just can't keep from messin' with stuff to "improve" it. Don't understand that there is no way we can home brew oil that is better than the oil company chemists blend to meet a price point. If you want better oil, buy better oil.

-- A specific additive to solve a specific problem. Kreen to clean out sludge, for example. If the engine was designed right, or if the owner had used the right oil for the engine, the sludge wouldn't have been there, of course.