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Which "Full Synthetic" oils are Group 4 PAO?
- Thread starter Jack2468
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Probably some $20+ a quart exotic stuff.
Unless you can produce a URL and proof that Group 4 PAO is going to guarantee my car an extra 100,000 miles of engine life I'm not interested!
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the mobil 1 full synthetic european car formula 0w40 has up to 40% group 4 base oil; wow, the highest for mobil 1 i have seen yet.
wemay
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You don't have to chose Mobil1. Go with some of the offerings from Ravenol, Amsoil, Red Line, HPL, Royal Purple or Motul if significant amounts of PAO are desired. I'm sure there are others.
I won't try to convince anyone what's better, worse or sufficient for them.
I won't try to convince anyone what's better, worse or sufficient for them.
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what brand makes AP 0w20?
PAO and the old Fram ultra is so good even You tires won't wear out ! Humor aside there are base oils that protect better than PAO.
wemay
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Mobil1 AP
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mobil 1 ap 5w30 only has 10 porcent PAO as per 2019 SDS.
It’d be awesome if the admins had a feature to prevent zombifying old threads, and making it possible to just quote a post, requiring one to start a new thread rather than resurrecting old news!
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Amsoils synthetic diesel max 10w30 SDS does not show any PAO oils,so I dont know on which basis does it get said that amsoil has oils with high PAO content. Liqui moly 10w30 long time synth oil has 30 porcent PAO, at least something, though i dont understand how supposedly german oil regulations seem stricter when liqui moly 10w30 long time synth oil has the words full synthtetic on the bottle and only has 40 % PAO, and supposedly german oil regulations get touted as stricter than US regulatoins. Ravenols website also doesnt list SDS; so no idea how many PAO in there. Redline also doesnt disclose amount of PAOs on most of its oils SDS.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
You are quoting me from 4 years ago. AP no longer exists, Mobil merged it with EP. AP 0w-20 became EP 0w-20, and, by virtue of that, carried with it the high PAO percentage in the base oil blend, which, as you've now discovered, was recently significantly reduced.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
You just have to check the German versions of the website. The products can be sold as "synthetic" in the rest of the world with Group III and no PAO in the base oil blend. However, if it is sold as vollsynthetisches in Germany, then the base oil blend is at least 70 or 75% Group IV/V.
Ravenol is very upfront about their products being vollsynthetisches or hydrocracked.
Like POE or Di Esters.
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picture downloaded from liqui-moly.de german website; the bottle says vollsynthetisch which means full synthetic
sds downloaded from liqui-moly.de german website; the sds lists 30 % PAO
i guess even in germany oils with less than 50 % PAO get sold as full synthetic; so much for the supposedly strict german oil regulations.
though on liqui-moly.de website i did find this liqui moly 0w-40 synthoil Energy which says full synthetic on the bottle.
the sds from the liqui-moly.de website shows a 60% PAO, the highest i have seen currently in synthetic oils.
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OVERKILL
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It doesn't have to be PAO, and PAO isn't required to be called out on the MSDS. There are a few different PAO CAS #'s as well. Companies have gotten in trouble (in Germany) for using the vollsynthetisches label without the product being fully synthetic. The requirement is Group IV/V, which includes AN's and Esters (POE for example).
Remember, MSDS sheets are NOT recipes! They, sometimes, give us a bit of a glimpse into what is in a product, that's all. Most of them are extremely vague, we are quite lucky that some manufacturers call out Group III sometimes, PAO, sometimes...etc.
OVERKILL
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POE surface competes with additives though, which is why it is typically limited in its use. AN's can be used in higher concentrations, because they don't have that problem. However, they don't have a great VI and their cold temperature performance isn't great either, so that limits how much of them can be used.
PAO's big strengths are oxidation resistance and cold temperature performance. Its negative characteristics (poor solubility, seal shrink) can be offset using the above two bases, which leads to a pretty darn good base oil blend. However, if extreme cold temp performance isn't required, you can achieve comparable performance using Group III and not have to worry about having to offset the seal shrink (though you still have to deal with the poor solubility).
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It doesn't have to be PAO, and PAO isn't required to be called out on the MSDS. There are a few different PAO CAS #'s as well. Companies have gotten in trouble (in Germany) for using the vollsynthetisches label without the product being fully synthetic. The requirement is Group IV/V, which includes AN's and Esters (POE for example).
how does germany regulate that supposed oil regulation of synthetic oil 50 % PAO content, though? they would have to make the oil comppanies post their PAO content somewhere for the public to see, because if not anyone could call an oil synthetic in germany. seems to me like an old wives tale, the supposed german oil regulation of at least 50% PAO for synthetic oils, unless some proof on the contrary gets offered.
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