Which "Full Synthetic" oils are Group 4 PAO?

[sloinker]

I think that is generally correct but you have to watch out nowadays as the Euro oils and boutique oils have added lines of less costly OEM approved blends that are mostly class III. I have done a lot of looking at (M)SDS sheets and their foreign counterparts along with any other documentation that is out there and agree that Mobil 1 extended is about the only generally available retail oil readily available from retailers with a good proportion of PAO's. It's not much less cost wise than a Red Line, Motul or other high end oils. With the inevitable discounts available it probably is a good way to go if you really want the PAO's.

Here is a MSDS for Red Line 5W30 euro diesel oil. Not sure if the 99% is an ester or what?
https://w3apps.phillips66.com/NetMSDS/ViewPDF.aspx?fileName=829143&Language=EN&IssueDate=7%2F2%2F2015&SubFormat=USDS

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jack2468
Hmmm, interesting. I knew a majority of the off the shelf synthetic would be mostly Group III, but I didn't realize that basically only the higher end blends of Mobil1 and maybe Royal Purple were the only readily available oils that have a high concentration of PAO.


The Royal Purple oils you find at Walmart will not have any PAO in them. They will be group III based.

Originally Posted By: Jack2468
So my understanding is that Euro blends (like Mobil1 European Formula) will generally have a lot of PAO


Not necessarily, M1 0w-40 FS and the SOPUS 0w-40 are both GTL-based now and have little if any PAO in them. The Castrol 0w-40 does however have a decent slug of PAO.

Originally Posted By: Jack2468
and that specialty brands such as Amsoil, Motul, Lubri-Moly, Total, Redline and other oils that you would typically have to special order (if you live in the US) will typically be Group V Ester based oils or be Group IV with lots of PAO?


Nope, can't assume that at all. Only AMSOIL's Signature Series line is predominantly PAO for example. Motul, like Mobil, varies grade-to-grade unless you are using their insanely expensive 300V product. Lubri-Moly also makes plenty of Group III-based oils, same with Total. Redline's street oils are predominantly PAO-based with little Group V in them.

 

[Jack2468]

I was mostly just curious, to be honest. People on this site seem to praise PAO and say things like Group III is not "real" synthetic and stuff lile that. I just wanted to know what, or even if, you could buy anything at Walmart or the parts stores that has a decent amount of PAO in it.

Obviously, using group III oils doesn't bother me, as you can tell by my signature that's what I run in my cars. Also, as I stated in my OP, I will continue running Pennzoil synthetic in my car, knowing that it's group III, because I know it's still quality stuff and meets all the specifications required (which is more important than what's in it, anyways).

 

[dave1251]

Group III base oil will match PAO in performance outside the Artic. I will use a well formulated PCMO which meets specs and not worry.

 

[Elijah1]

Can someone explain the fixation with group IV ?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Elijah1
Can someone explain the fixation with group IV ?


PAO is an expensive base and, generally, is only used when necessary in oils blended to a price point. That's why AMSOIL came out with lower tier oils that are less expensive to blend for the non-extended OCI crowd that aren't PAO-based like their SS lineup.

Mobil's EP and AP 0w-20's use it in volume, which makes them a relative bargain if purchased at the same price as other 0w-20's that are Group III based. Whether that's an advantage in your usage profile however, is a whole other discussion.

PAO's primary advantages are increased oxidation resistance and incredible cold temperature performance. It has no wax in it, so it doesn't suddenly hit a viscosity wall at a certain temperature point like base oils that do. Ergo, its low temperature viscosity tracks quite linearly, making it predictable. Of course since a fully formulated motor oil requires things other than a base oil, one of which is a carrier for additives, since PAO has very poor additive solubility, the final product will still have PPD's (pour point depressants) simply not at the level of dosing required for an oil not based on PAO. The increased oxidation resistance aides in the ability to handle extended drains, which likely, at least in part, explains as to why it features so prominently in certain Mobil EP and AP products, as well as AMSOIL's SS lineup.

Now of course one could note that Mobil is one of the largest producers of PAO, so for them to use it isn't the same as somebody like Castrol, who has to buy it from Mobil, CP or one of the others. However, how that plays into Mobil's usage profile, I'm not certain.

I think the other reason people fixate on it is that, before the Castrol/Mobil BBB dispute, only Group IV (PAO) and Group V (POE, AN's....etc) were permitted to be labelled as "Synthetic". Ergo, once that changed, people perceived they were being cheated by companies like Castrol marketing Group III as synthetic because they could. And of course in Germany, the adherence to the old labelling system has provided more fuel for that thought process.

 

[burla]

Amsoil SS is PAO based, yeah not since like last century. Try Redline PAO and Esters only. Ravenol reports some of their oils pao based. Never assume an oil has pao if they don't say so imo.

 

[madeej11]

Don't fool yourself burla, Amsoil's got PAO. What the concentration is we're not sure. Guaranteed if you took a poll on this site the majority would agree.

 

[Astro_Guy]

1-Decene Homopolymer Hydrogentated doesn't appear in Amsoil Safety Data Sheets, so why do people insist it has a high concentration of PAO?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: burla
Amsoil SS is PAO based, yeah not since like last century. Try Redline PAO and Esters only. Ravenol reports some of their oils pao based. Never assume an oil has pao if they don't say so imo.


This wild posit is based on what exactly? Redline is primarily PAO based, which I pointed out to you before. AMSOIL is more secretive (not much useful data in their MSDS unfortunately) however the pour point, which does give a hint as to what the base oil is, points to an oil that is primarily PAO-based. This is also supported by their excellent NOACK volatility numbers.

 

[burla]

When NOACK is "excellent" but doesn't follow suit with the hths numbers is it more indicative of heavy vii's then PAO. Vii's can survive NOACK testing but the heavy heat of hths weeds out the fakers. I am all aboard being an Amsoil fan again assuming the commit to real synthetic like they used to, like Redline and Motul and a few others still do. That is why Redine has excellent NOACK followed by Excellent hths, completes a triangle of viscosity if you include operating temps that really gives you an idea on the quality of the base oils. I just find it odd when someone asks for real PAO this forum is not singing redline's name along with motul.

 

[burla]

There is a real opportunity for a brand to step out with the low additives pending with whatever gf-6 spec drops, to have real PAO and maybe some esters to stand head above the field, because it "appears" redline wont be on the low additive train, at least in the short run. I am actually more confident someone will actually step up and fill this market.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: burla
When NOACK is "excellent" but doesn't follow suit with the hths numbers is it more indicative of heavy vii's then PAO. Vii's can survive NOACK testing but the heavy heat of hths weeds out the fakers. I am all aboard being an Amsoil fan again assuming the commit to real synthetic like they used to, like Redline and Motul and a few others still do. That is why Redine has excellent NOACK followed by Excellent hths, completes a triangle of viscosity if you include operating temps that really gives you an idea on the quality of the base oils. I just find it odd when someone asks for real PAO this forum is not singing redline's name along with motul.


Redline has heavy for the grade HTHS in their 5w-30. Their 0w-30 is more indicative of a "typical" blend. I think you are off-base.

Regardless of your posit regarding VII dosing, that doesn't change the pour point numbers, which are again indicative of significant PAO in the base blend. You do realize that PAO is available in more than one visc right? One can blend a majority PAO GF-5 PCMO with a moderate HTHS just like they can use a heavier PAO base and create a Euro-oriented 5w-30 with a higher HTHS, which AMSOIL's 5w-30 Euro checks the boxes for. You cannot just whip out Redline's 5w-30 as some sort of universal PAO barometer, it doesn't work that way. Not every circumstance makes a high HTHS 5w-30 desirable, particularly when your target audience is using predominantly GF-5 ILSAC oils with Resource Conserving viscosity ranges.

Let's look at some of Mobil's products:



Now, that 5w-30 in that 2nd table, it's 82.9% PAO. Yet it has an HTHS of 3.2cP, which is not far off from the 3.11cP of AMSOIL's 5w-30. MRV is 12,000cP, CCS is 5,770cP, which is even higher than AMSOIL's at 3,968cP, NOACK is 6%, AMSOIL's is 6.7%. This points to AMSOIL using a slightly lighter base oil blend, particularly when one looks at the Pour Point, which, for their 5w-30 is -50C/-58F. In fact, if we look at the specific PAO-based PCMO that Mobil gives as an example:



We see a strikingly similar CCS viscosity, HTHS and actually, a slightly higher Pour Point. And this is an oil that's 70% PAO based with 10% AN mixed in.

So please provide some contradicting data to the above or perhaps acknowledge that your one-dimensional view here may not be accurate.

And not to pile-on, but yet another data point:




That's a high HTHS 5w-30 with exceptional CCS and MRV that's 11.74% VII, 63.36% PAO and 5% Esters and 8% NOACK.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The Royal Purple oils you find at Walmart will not have any PAO in them. They will be group III based.

The RP 0w-40 (maybe even the 5w-40) might be an exception, since they weren't switched up when the rest of the RP main line went SN and dexos1, as the case may be.

burla: What incentive will there be in GF-6 to produce an oil with low additive levels but significant PAO content, above and beyond the competition? Almost no one does that now, so unless there's an overriding need to do so to formulate an oil that way, I can't see the mainstream players wanting to do that. Some boutiques might, but the number of people who really buy them based upon any true understanding of the base stocks is minuscule. Usually, a conversation goes with them how Castrol won a lawsuit and no one anywhere makes synthetic oil except the person's favorite boutique.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Regardless of your posit regarding VII dosing, that doesn't change the pour point numbers, which are again indicative of significant PAO in the base blend.


The last time I posted anything on pour points I was chastised for "playing pour point" games, lol. Which if I'm not mistaken Redine has some of the best if not the best pour points out there. When I have time I will search through some paper out there, I don't have the info categorized but I will find it. Thanks for posting links.

In an oil forum I am just surprised and the lack of enthusiasm for group 4 and 5 oils. When someone is asking about them I would consider telling the poster what he is asking for. Seeing what the PAO/esters have done in my truck and 30 others, one of which posted a video of how the difference sounded in his truck, I can understand why people want to access this info. I have no doubt we will be headed back in that direction with newer standards like you see in transmission fluids going full pao. You see manu's attempting this with Nissan ester, you will see more. The govt is shoving low additives low viscosities down the throat of manu's, there is few places for them to go except PAO/ester.

OP I don't know if I can post Amazon stuff, but google this...

Includes: RAVENOL DXG 5W30 Motor Oil (Read more below)
Real 100% fully synthetic group 4 PAO (Poly-Alpha-Olefines) base stock

 

[Garak]

There is certainly some enthusiasm, but one gets tired of the game of hunting for oils that are a moving target from a formulation standpoint, not to mention hard to find and expensive in the first place. It, too, gets hard to be enthusiastic when fleet vehicles have gone hundreds of thousands of miles on basic conventional oils.

 

[burla]

One thing is for sure, I wouldn't buy something someone "thinks" is PAO expecting PAO. If I was looking for PAO, I would look to a company that tells you it is PAO. As for Ravenol saying it is 100% PAO, I don't know that is the case, in fact I kinda doubt it, but at least they let you know it is a PAO base oil. I wouldn't buy Amsoil, m1, RP, Castrol because someone who reportedly mixes it told someone once that it is PAO. Those people using PAO let you know it is PAO because that is is a desirable selling point. Zf8 transmission fluid is the perfect example, no there is no "code" or hush hush marketing technique, they simply tell you this is PAO.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted By: Garak
There is certainly some enthusiasm, but one gets tired of the game of hunting for oils that are a moving target from a formulation standpoint, not to mention hard to find and expensive in the first place. It, too, gets hard to be enthusiastic when fleet vehicles have gone hundreds of thousands of miles on basic conventional oils.


agreed, 100%

Since the beginning of this forum the question of is my truck gonna last longer if I use brand a or brand b still hasn't been answered. But some manu's are using lifetime fluids now that are pao, so who I am to toss shade on what they are doing?

 

[JAG]

Great post, Overkill

 

[burla]

Pour Point depressants plus Vii's can achieve good pour point and low noack?