Which engineering job should I take?

[onion]

So I know that lots of people on this forum are in engineering and related fields. I'd be interested in some opinions on which of two jobs I should choose.

A bit about my background: I'm 34 years old. I've worked as a diesel mechanic (diesel engines, trucks, tractors, construction equipment) for about 16 years now. I'm exceptionally good at my job, but there are several aspects that I DON'T like about being a diesel mechanic: The pay is low, working conditions are terrible (HOT in the summer, COLD in the winter, dirty and dangerous year-round). And in any company I've worked for, the mechanics are pretty much at the bottom of the totem pole- and are treated as such.

So my solution has been to go back to school and get a BSME. I know it's no panacea, but I'm pretty sure it'll lead me to a better job. I'll be graduating in roughly a month, and I've been sending out lots of resumes. Of all the places I've interviewed with, I think it's likely that I'll get an offer from two places in particular:

The first position is "entry level design engineer" at an aircraft manufacturer. I have zero experience with aircraft, but I assume I could learn it just like anything else (I would be just as green as any kid straight out of school, though). At this job, I would be sitting behind a desk 90% of the time, mostly doing CAD work (Catia), doing design work for the "advanced design" department (where they mock up dozens of new designs per year, and flesh out two or three that get approved). I'm familiar with the software- we use it at school. I don't MIND doing CAD work, but 8 hours per day might get old pretty quick. The good points I can see are this: It's an entry into design engineering, which CAN be a pretty interesting field. And there seem to be lots of jobs in that field. This is the corporate headquarters of the company. There's a huge and nice campus, including not just the factory- but also employees' fitness club, multiple cafeterias, etc. Everything in the factory is clean and orderly... same goes for the offices. It would be a huge change in culture compared to the industry I've been in over the past 16 years. It's intimidating, but I think it has the potential to be a very good job.

The second job is at a construction equipment manufacturer. This is the kind of equipment that I've been wrenching on for 16 years, and I'm very comfortable working with it. The position is "test engineer". This would involve testing prototype units and components to ensure that they perform as specified. There are stress tests to be done on chassis and linkage components, dyno tests to ensure that the machine won't overheat in a hot climate, lift tests to verify lift force and tipping weight, endurance tests to ensure that drivetrain components will hold up over time, etc. This requires strong hands-on ability (I'm all over that), and will require some statistical analysis and making presentations, meeting with other departments, etc. There is no design work, although I'd be making reccomendations. On the face of it this SOUNDS like the perfect job for me. But I have a few reservations: The test area is small, dirty, and just plain unprofessional looking... really not all the different from the truck shop where I work right now. There appears to be a fair amount of turnover for the younger engineers- they stick around a few years then go elsewhere. And really the entire operation just struck me as less orderly and professional than the aircraft factory. This may just be a cultural difference between the two industries... and it makes me wonder how I'll feel about the place once I've been there a year or two. At first glance, it LOOKS like I'd just be working in another diesel shop- just doing more advanced work. That might be ok... haven't made up my mind.

I don't have a firm offer from either place yet, but I have reason to believe that salary, work hours, and benefits are all very similar. Commute time is also very similar between the two jobs.

So which job would YOU choose? Which do you reckon I should choose? I'd welcome any advice or comments.

 

[McKittrick]

I am also an ME. What was your specialty? Mine was Thermo and Heat Transfer.

I would check into the history of both companies, are they stable and growing? What is the potential for job progression, does design or test engineer have a typical progression to something with more responsiblity? Do they support additional educational opportunities, graduate programs, etc?

Aviation can be a very up and down business, depends on the economic cycle, hopefully your research into that company will tell you how they have been doing. Does the constuction company do a lot of exporting? That can soften some of the domestic economic effects if the countries they export to do not follow the same trends as here.

Have you met your potential bosses? A good boss can make all the difference.

Good Luck and let us know how it turns out.

 

[volk06]

If your familiar with the equipment and you enjoyed it, I'd go with that job. Test engineers have a high turn over because most advance to a higher level engineer after a few years. Aerospace has less room for error and usually dealing with foreigners quite often due to the industry. I'd view heavy machinery as a more secure industry.

Good thing is if the only thing keeping from the job is cleanliness, that's a change and a culture you can help create.

Do a pro/con if each job and go with your gut feeling.


Also a fellow engr

 

[jaj]

I've been managing engineering and technology companies for over 30 years, since my 20's. I have some input, although I wouldn't call it guidance, for you.

First, "design" is higher up the food chain than "test" in any organization that makes a living developing things. People who can't get a design job usually settle for a test job and try to move up (hence the turnover). That said, my experience is that good testers are worth their weight in gold. However, they're always underappreciated, so don't get your hopes up.

Design work is best done by people that can think in three dimensions and have an appreciation of how the world works at the coal face. You have experience fixing things designed by others, and from that I'm pretty sure you have a strong set of opinions about what's "good design" and what isn't. Someone straight out of school can't do what you can, and if they spend 8 hours a day behind a screen for five years, they still won't be able to do it. In my world, you have "competitive advantage" and that will translate into more interesting opportunities than most people get.

So those are my opinions. In the end just pick the one that makes you feel like you'll want to get out of bed every morning and head off to work. If you have that kind of committment, you'll do well regardless of which one you pick.

Edit: I just saw the other two replies - they're dead on too. One thing to realize though: ALL engineering work is cyclical, not just heavy equipment or aerospace - they ALL are, so plan on moving around some over the course of your career to be where the work is.

 

[Quest]

I'm with jaj in this case: either 1 of the 2, whichever works to your satisfaction (long term), that should be the one worth considering for.

Good luck!

Q.

I'm in my 40s and had drastic career changes a few times already (was a certified mech 2 decades ago). Now I'm working in an office job dealing with IT and I have no regrets so far---better pay, less physical/health issues), and most important of all: job security.

 

[PandaBear]

jaj is spot on. If your goal is to move higher up the career ladder then it is easier to go from the design side rather than the test side. Both are important, but based on what onion wrote test would still be closer to the totem pole and he might mind it more than the design side of things.

Regarding to the 8 hrs behind computer, it is either that or a greasy shop / lab.

 

[Al]

I worked in the Electric Utility (Nuke) for my whole career. I'm an ME. One thing is that no job you take will be (probably) as you expect. That's why one of the suggestions about finding as much info as possible is great.

Getting back to my one point. I was able to channel my way into an area that I enjoyed bc both me and the company figured out what my strengths and weaknesses were.

Perhaps the aircraft manufacturer might be better in this area?

But try to balance your feeling of which job you like, could do better at, where more opportunity may be at, and anything else positive or negative you can come up with.

I know its hoakey, but perhaps do a decision analysis by assigning points to a whole bunch of good and bad points of both jobs then ad up the numbers.
Anyway you have 5 very excellent responses above mine.

 

[A_Harman]

I've been a degreed BSME since 1985, working in both testing and design functions. I started as a (mostly) engine test engineer and stuck with that for 11 years, then transitioned to (mostly) engine design engineer since then. I think it's better to get hands-on experience with the hardware before doing design. Design engineers that have never been challenged to put theory into practice are at a great disadvantage. But since you already have years of hands-on experience as a diesel mechanic, you can bring a real-world perspective to a design position.

As a design engineer, be prepared for the fact that 70% of what you design never gets built, and that everybody that looks at your design finds something wrong with it.

As a test engineer, be prepared that no matter how carefully you set up and document a test, somebody will find a reason to disbelieve your data.

I won't tell you which job you should take, but I can make suggestions for either path:

If you take the test engineer position, plan to work in it for 2 years, then transition to something that builds on that base and requires more application of engineering theory.

If you take the design engineer position, don't get lost in the theory of it all; always try to relate the work to what happens when the gadget is put into service.

 

[440Magnum]

Don't consider this hard-over advice, but I do have one acquaintance who took a job as an "entry level engineer" with a major airfame manufacturer in the PacNW a couple of years ago (rhymes with 'going'... you get the picture). At those companies, "entry level" engineers are kinda like paperclips- they use 'em up. If you can survive a few years of that, its a great career. But the first few years can be B-R-U-T-A-L.

I suspect that the equipment manufacturer is a bit more low-key and considerate of junior employees- just based on my comparison of the big airframe companies compared to small electronic hardware companies. No guarantees- either job could turn out to be a meat grinder for a while, but I'm guessing odds are better at something other than a big aerospace company.

 

[dparm]

A lot of entry-level stuff has high turnover. The employers know it, and the employees know it. You have to get your foot in the door somehow; I say take that one and move on in a few years to something better.

 

[morris]

did not have time to read it all but. ask for the cost of moving back if things dont work out.

 

[JHZR2]

IMO, folks that do designs based upon their real-world experience is far better than scientists designing some widget. Thus your practical experience will come into play and youll do good work.

Its easier to work the testing of your design, than to design something when youre stuck testing.

 

[PandaBear]

Other than the design vs test debate, we also have a future career path and size of company debate here:

If you found out that you do not like airplane design, your CAD skill can probably be put to good use in other industry (i.e. semiconductor equipment, automotive, infrastructure, etc). The farm equipment test engineer may lead you to mostly heavy equipment and automotive industries due to the scope of the work.

I'm not sure how big these companies are, but in general, the larger the company and the industry, the more specific the jobs are and the less chances of learning a little bit of everything. There is a risk that after 10-15 years you are only good at one particular skill and if the industry hit a down turn, you may find yourself not able to transition to another field. One of my coworker who was a PhD in fluid mechanic aspect of ME had a hard time after being laid off for this exact reason.

 

[Donald]

Have you joined LinkedIn and looked for Groups for the perspective companies?

 

[JTK]

I know in my particular field, MEs get shuffled around every ~3yrs from department to department. If they're on the management train they are expected to get their MBA and move into more of the 'business end' Managers are very much shuffled around every couple years.

I earned an Associates in ME 20yrs ago and a Bachelors in B.Management about 10yrs ago. I've had jobs in Test, QA, Management and Operations. I absolutely LOVE being a lowly shift working plant Operations Tech. There's very few experienced people in my line of work, so we tend to stay very busy. We basically manage ourselves and there's little/no travel.

My very basic advice is; What ever job you take, the closer you are to the company's core product, the better off you are.

Joel

 

[onion]

Originally Posted By: McKittrick
I am also an ME. What was your specialty? Mine was Thermo and Heat Transfer.


Specialty?? HA! We ain't got no specialty at my school for [censored] degrees. That only happens for masters' students.

My choice of electives was based solely on what was available at the time, and what fit my schedule. So let's just say that I'll have a plain ol' BSME. No specialty.

And I don't think that's a problem. You're the first person who has asked me that.

Quote:
I would check into the history of both companies, are they stable and growing? What is the potential for job progression, does design or test engineer have a typical progression to something with more responsiblity? Do they support additional educational opportunities, graduate programs, etc?


As far as I can tell, both companies are similar in all these respects. Both have been around for a long LONG time. Both employ thousands of people at large facilities in several states and a couple of facilities outside the U.S. Both have very similar benefits, including education reimbursement. At both interviews, I was told about opportunities to move up the food-chain.

One difference is in their apparent willingness to lay people off. Both companies were hit hard by the economic downturn in 2008/2009. The aircraft company laid off half of their engineering workforce, and that's part of the reason they're hiring now. The construction equipment company didn't lay anybody off- just stopped hiring.

Both companies say that their business is rebounding, although the rebound seems stronger for the construction equipment.

Quote:
Aviation can be a very up and down business, depends on the economic cycle, hopefully your research into that company will tell you how they have been doing. Does the constuction company do a lot of exporting? That can soften some of the domestic economic effects if the countries they export to do not follow the same trends as here.


Yes, I have exactly the same impression of the aviation industry. It's feast or famine. And yes, the construction equipment place does lots of exporting, and that IS helping their rebound.

Now I don't necessarily mean to stay in this town for more than a few years, so long-term stability may not be a big issue for me. Right now, I'm looking for better pay and good experience. Not necessarily planning to be a lifer at any place.

Quote:

Have you met your potential bosses? A good boss can make all the difference.


Yes, I've interviewed with potential bosses at both places. Problem is that I don't trust my first impressions as they're almost never right.

But I liked the boss at the aircraft place a little better for what that's worth.

Quote:

Good Luck and let us know how it turns out.


Thanks. I will.

 

[tom slick]

Want to build specialized Ag equipment and see the the project from initial meeting to design, build, and delivery?
If you want to move to central Calif. we'll hire you right now. I'm looking for an engineer that knows his way around the shop as well as the computer. We can't find one!

We have some of the best weather in the country.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: onion
One difference is in their apparent willingness to lay people off. Both companies were hit hard by the economic downturn in 2008/2009. The aircraft company laid off half of their engineering workforce, and that's part of the reason they're hiring now. The construction equipment company didn't lay anybody off- just stopped hiring.


I spent close to 30 years in mechanical engineering. I started off doing 2 years on test engineering then moved to design of vehicles and weapon systems. Test is a good way to learn by observing other's design failures so you don't have to make them yourself

I'm only 1/2 kidding. You also get to see a lot of design work that's done right.

In your case, a stint as a test engineer on equipment related to your mechanics background wouldn't be of as much benefit as a kid with no real world experience. But, if there is a clear path out of test into design, a year or so there could still be beneficial for you though.

I have no personal experience in the aircraft engineering business but have know lots of engineers that had previously worked in the aircraft industry, I;'ve worked with many of them and had a few work for me. My impression is that they tend to get pigeon holed into one specialty more often than ground vehicle designers. It seemed they also took longer to get into a position of responsibility where they got to drive the way the design work was done.

I would lean toward the ground vehicle company as long as you can move to other engineering jobs within the company. One other reason is that the lay off policies of the two companies tells yo about more than job security, they tell you how that companies management values employees.

 

[Shannow]

Going to post starting out biased, but even as a graduate, I was going to be sitting in front of CAD, I'd quickly find a way to strangle myself with a mouse cord...maybe that's why they invented mouse cords.

I honestly haven't met a decent engineer yet in my life who hasn't done hands on stuff...Find a good engineer, and they've gotten their hands dirty, maybe not in the field, but they've built cars, built sailboats, built and raced karts and bikes etc...I've had second year undergrads way out perform honors grads, simply because they know how stuff works, by being exposed to the laws of physics, in application...does that "look" strong enough ?, why did THAT break ? why did it break THAT way ?...they are the guys with the list of questions , not the ones with the instant answer.

Given your background, I'd guess that you've got that part nailed...however, a couple of years as a professional in that sort of field might do a lot for your future cred in the industry, and the theory of a degree when actually applied over the top of failure analysis should strengthen your abilities to explain to others "why it broke", and potentially open doors when people think that your designs won't (break) because you've seen it before.

I think (personally) that it's going to be harder to get runs on the board in your new career designing something (that others have already wisely suggested) has a less than 50:50 chance of making it to development.

Al's evaluation matrix is a good idea...do a bubble sort on all the things you think/like/dislike, and evaluate each option against it....also add where you want to be when you retire, and/or how much of your engineering career do you want to be an engineer versus ultimately a project or man manager.

Linkdin...I avoid it as much as facebook. Everyone knows exactly how good your last game was, and the marketting speil in Linkdin can be a source of humour for many.

I'd avoid specialising yourself too much.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
Want to build specialized Ag equipment and see the the project from initial meeting to design, build, and delivery?
If you want to move to central Calif. we'll hire you right now. I'm looking for an engineer that knows his way around the shop as well as the computer. We can't find one!

We have some of the best weather in the country.


What's the pay like ?

I'm almost semi serious.