Which 9mm Defensive Round?
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this stuff
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=936
The full metal jacket Federal bullet with the soft rubber/plastic inside is one of the most reliable expanding bullets when going through different material. Most expanding bullets will not expand if they first penetrate a hard surface and get their hollow point filled with solid crud. A hard surface can be thin plywood, gypsum wall board, or bone. Corbon is another that usually expands.
Quote:
Tremendous expansion from non-hollow-point design. Never fills with barrier material -- expands every time.
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=936
The full metal jacket Federal bullet with the soft rubber/plastic inside is one of the most reliable expanding bullets when going through different material. Most expanding bullets will not expand if they first penetrate a hard surface and get their hollow point filled with solid crud. A hard surface can be thin plywood, gypsum wall board, or bone. Corbon is another that usually expands.
Quote:
Tremendous expansion from non-hollow-point design. Never fills with barrier material -- expands every time.
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In an apartment or tight housing setting, I would go with the Corbon powerball or a Glaser safety slug. Good muzzle energy, will feed through most guns as it is a polymer tipped round. The glaser safety slug is less likely to go through several walls.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug
http://www.corbon.com/Pow-RBall.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug
http://www.corbon.com/Pow-RBall.html
Yep, the powerball is a good round, but the Glasers are the snake oil of the self defense ammo world.
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Where in the mix, do you guys feel that the Hornady Critical Defense rounds fall?
I was fond of the Critical Defense brand early on, but when Hornaday issued a statement saying that their rounds would not perform when shot through glass, I was discouraged. Their understanding was that it you were shooting through glass, you weren't doing so in a legal way. I disagree. If someone approaches my vehicle with my family and myself inside, and I understand a threat of loss of life to a member of my family or myself, through the glass I go. I go with the grain of many departments across the great USA, Speer Gold Dots. FWIW.
Where in the mix, do you guys feel that the Hornady Critical Defense rounds fall?
I was fond of the Critical Defense brand early on, but when Hornaday issued a statement saying that their rounds would not perform when shot through glass, I was discouraged. Their understanding was that it you were shooting through glass, you weren't doing so in a legal way. I disagree. If someone approaches my vehicle with my family and myself inside, and I understand a threat of loss of life to a member of my family or myself, through the glass I go. I go with the grain of many departments across the great USA, Speer Gold Dots. FWIW.
Originally Posted By: cancov
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Where in the mix, do you guys feel that the Hornady Critical Defense rounds fall?
I was fond of the Critical Defense brand early on, but when Hornaday issued a statement saying that their rounds would not perform when shot through glass, I was discouraged. Their understanding was that it you were shooting through glass, you weren't doing so in a legal way. I disagree. If someone approaches my vehicle with my family and myself inside, and I understand a threat of loss of life to a member of my family or myself, through the glass I go. I go with the grain of many departments across the great USA, Speer Gold Dots. FWIW.
Hornandy makes the Critical Defense in a bonded form with improved barrier penetration...these rounds are branded as Critical Duty.
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Where in the mix, do you guys feel that the Hornady Critical Defense rounds fall?
I was fond of the Critical Defense brand early on, but when Hornaday issued a statement saying that their rounds would not perform when shot through glass, I was discouraged. Their understanding was that it you were shooting through glass, you weren't doing so in a legal way. I disagree. If someone approaches my vehicle with my family and myself inside, and I understand a threat of loss of life to a member of my family or myself, through the glass I go. I go with the grain of many departments across the great USA, Speer Gold Dots. FWIW.
Hornandy makes the Critical Defense in a bonded form with improved barrier penetration...these rounds are branded as Critical Duty.
For my 9MM I use PDX1 and Speer Gold Dot for the 45 ACP.
Number one lesson, in gun control class, run away if u can. If u family is in the car with u, drive off, the bad guys can shoot back, as for shooting thru glass, u been watch n to much Tv. If u can, get some safety glass and sit beside it fire off a few rounds and see what happens, a test is better then doing off the cuff. I would wear safety glasses, oh, and put the wife and kids there with u so they will understand what gonna happen when daddy carries a gun. IMHO
Originally Posted By: AMC
I prefer the 124grn +p loads over 147s. I prefer the lighter and faster bullet and also find that 124grn bullets usually feed better than 147s. My choices are the federal HST 124grn +p, Speer gold dot 124gr +p and the winchester ranger 127grn +p+ (if you can find them). All have proven to extremely effective and reliable. Be advised that in order for a bullet to penetrate a bad guy deep enough to cause quick inacapacitation, it would have to penetrate several walls also.
Glasers are pure [censored]. Do a google search, they have been tested by alot of people and fired in ballistics gel, wet news paper, pork shoulder ect, they make a big initial wound but only penetrate 4-6 inches. I would stay away from those.
Ps,,,how many gun fights u been in,,newspapers and pork,dont shoot back, if a bullet penetrates 6 inches ur gonna bleed, and a head shot , wow, 4 inches or 6 inches is gonna mess ur brain up, way to much cowboy data there, IMHO,
I prefer the 124grn +p loads over 147s. I prefer the lighter and faster bullet and also find that 124grn bullets usually feed better than 147s. My choices are the federal HST 124grn +p, Speer gold dot 124gr +p and the winchester ranger 127grn +p+ (if you can find them). All have proven to extremely effective and reliable. Be advised that in order for a bullet to penetrate a bad guy deep enough to cause quick inacapacitation, it would have to penetrate several walls also.
Glasers are pure [censored]. Do a google search, they have been tested by alot of people and fired in ballistics gel, wet news paper, pork shoulder ect, they make a big initial wound but only penetrate 4-6 inches. I would stay away from those.
Ps,,,how many gun fights u been in,,newspapers and pork,dont shoot back, if a bullet penetrates 6 inches ur gonna bleed, and a head shot , wow, 4 inches or 6 inches is gonna mess ur brain up, way to much cowboy data there, IMHO,
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Originally Posted By: AMC
I prefer the 124grn +p loads over 147s. I prefer the lighter and faster bullet and also find that 124grn bullets usually feed better than 147s. My choices are the federal HST 124grn +p, Speer gold dot 124gr +p and the winchester ranger 127grn +p+ (if you can find them). All have proven to extremely effective and reliable. Be advised that in order for a bullet to penetrate a bad guy deep enough to cause quick inacapacitation, it would have to penetrate several walls also.
Glasers are pure [censored]. Do a google search, they have been tested by alot of people and fired in ballistics gel, wet news paper, pork shoulder ect, they make a big initial wound but only penetrate 4-6 inches. I would stay away from those.
Ps,,,how many gun fights u been in,,newspapers and pork,dont shoot back, if a bullet penetrates 6 inches ur gonna bleed, and a head shot , wow, 4 inches or 6 inches is gonna mess ur brain up, way to much cowboy data there, IMHO,
I agree to some extent. I have seen two guys shot with 9mm FMJ. One was dead, one thought he was going to die. Neither one was even considering continuing to fight. To each his own, but I think the Glasers, etc are somewhat overblown.
Originally Posted By: AMC
I prefer the 124grn +p loads over 147s. I prefer the lighter and faster bullet and also find that 124grn bullets usually feed better than 147s. My choices are the federal HST 124grn +p, Speer gold dot 124gr +p and the winchester ranger 127grn +p+ (if you can find them). All have proven to extremely effective and reliable. Be advised that in order for a bullet to penetrate a bad guy deep enough to cause quick inacapacitation, it would have to penetrate several walls also.
Glasers are pure [censored]. Do a google search, they have been tested by alot of people and fired in ballistics gel, wet news paper, pork shoulder ect, they make a big initial wound but only penetrate 4-6 inches. I would stay away from those.
Ps,,,how many gun fights u been in,,newspapers and pork,dont shoot back, if a bullet penetrates 6 inches ur gonna bleed, and a head shot , wow, 4 inches or 6 inches is gonna mess ur brain up, way to much cowboy data there, IMHO,
I agree to some extent. I have seen two guys shot with 9mm FMJ. One was dead, one thought he was going to die. Neither one was even considering continuing to fight. To each his own, but I think the Glasers, etc are somewhat overblown.
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Number one lesson, in gun control class, run away if u can. If u family is in the car with u, drive off, the bad guys can shoot back, as for shooting thru glass, u been watch n to much Tv. If u can, get some safety glass and sit beside it fire off a few rounds and see what happens, a test is better then doing off the cuff. I would wear safety glasses, oh, and put the wife and kids there with u so they will understand what gonna happen when daddy carries a gun. IMHO
I agree with the retreat aspect to deter using deadly force, however your response doesn't take into account any possible situation involving being in a car and being approached by an assalant, i.e. broke down on the side of the road, blocked in traffic at a stop light where acceleration would only ended in running in the rear of another car and perhaps provoking the assalant to act unexpectantly. Every circumstance has its own characteristics which must be evaluated before a weapon should be drawn. This is circumstantial on many factors, including shooter's capability. As for "training" my family how to act when deadly force is used, I don't expect them to do anything other than what I've instructed them to do, keep your head and/or be on the ground. As for firing ammunition into glass, I have no training to accurately base an opinion on with the results. My opinions expressed are what I've learned from ballistic experts who are selected as such in the court of law, such as Massad Ayoob.
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
cancov : Please explain the reason for the different loads based on summer / winter conditions ?
Lighter weight bullets with a higher velocity for beter expansion related to lighter clothing layers as best characterized in summer clothing.
The heavier bullet for more penetration through thicker layers of clothing, before expansion for the most hydrostatic shock.
Number one lesson, in gun control class, run away if u can. If u family is in the car with u, drive off, the bad guys can shoot back, as for shooting thru glass, u been watch n to much Tv. If u can, get some safety glass and sit beside it fire off a few rounds and see what happens, a test is better then doing off the cuff. I would wear safety glasses, oh, and put the wife and kids there with u so they will understand what gonna happen when daddy carries a gun. IMHO
I agree with the retreat aspect to deter using deadly force, however your response doesn't take into account any possible situation involving being in a car and being approached by an assalant, i.e. broke down on the side of the road, blocked in traffic at a stop light where acceleration would only ended in running in the rear of another car and perhaps provoking the assalant to act unexpectantly. Every circumstance has its own characteristics which must be evaluated before a weapon should be drawn. This is circumstantial on many factors, including shooter's capability. As for "training" my family how to act when deadly force is used, I don't expect them to do anything other than what I've instructed them to do, keep your head and/or be on the ground. As for firing ammunition into glass, I have no training to accurately base an opinion on with the results. My opinions expressed are what I've learned from ballistic experts who are selected as such in the court of law, such as Massad Ayoob.
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
cancov : Please explain the reason for the different loads based on summer / winter conditions ?
Lighter weight bullets with a higher velocity for beter expansion related to lighter clothing layers as best characterized in summer clothing.
The heavier bullet for more penetration through thicker layers of clothing, before expansion for the most hydrostatic shock.
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Originally Posted By: AMC
I prefer the 124grn +p loads over 147s. I prefer the lighter and faster bullet and also find that 124grn bullets usually feed better than 147s. My choices are the federal HST 124grn +p, Speer gold dot 124gr +p and the winchester ranger 127grn +p+ (if you can find them). All have proven to extremely effective and reliable. Be advised that in order for a bullet to penetrate a bad guy deep enough to cause quick inacapacitation, it would have to penetrate several walls also.
Glasers are pure [censored]. Do a google search, they have been tested by alot of people and fired in ballistics gel, wet news paper, pork shoulder ect, they make a big initial wound but only penetrate 4-6 inches. I would stay away from those.
Ps,,,how many gun fights u been in,,newspapers and pork,dont shoot back, if a bullet penetrates 6 inches ur gonna bleed, and a head shot , wow, 4 inches or 6 inches is gonna mess ur brain up, way to much cowboy data there, IMHO,
I agree to some extent. I have seen two guys shot with 9mm FMJ. One was dead, one thought he was going to die. Neither one was even considering continuing to fight. To each his own, but I think the Glasers, etc are somewhat overblown.
Not to begin a caliber debate, but even multiple shots doesn't always stop a threat. Take into consideration a reknown encounter now known as the "Miami Incident."
http://www.rrmemphis.com/op030.html
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Originally Posted By: AMC
I prefer the 124grn +p loads over 147s. I prefer the lighter and faster bullet and also find that 124grn bullets usually feed better than 147s. My choices are the federal HST 124grn +p, Speer gold dot 124gr +p and the winchester ranger 127grn +p+ (if you can find them). All have proven to extremely effective and reliable. Be advised that in order for a bullet to penetrate a bad guy deep enough to cause quick inacapacitation, it would have to penetrate several walls also.
Glasers are pure [censored]. Do a google search, they have been tested by alot of people and fired in ballistics gel, wet news paper, pork shoulder ect, they make a big initial wound but only penetrate 4-6 inches. I would stay away from those.
Ps,,,how many gun fights u been in,,newspapers and pork,dont shoot back, if a bullet penetrates 6 inches ur gonna bleed, and a head shot , wow, 4 inches or 6 inches is gonna mess ur brain up, way to much cowboy data there, IMHO,
I agree to some extent. I have seen two guys shot with 9mm FMJ. One was dead, one thought he was going to die. Neither one was even considering continuing to fight. To each his own, but I think the Glasers, etc are somewhat overblown.
Not to begin a caliber debate, but even multiple shots doesn't always stop a threat. Take into consideration a reknown encounter now known as the "Miami Incident."
http://www.rrmemphis.com/op030.html
Originally Posted By: tommygunn
The Cor Bon Glaser is designed for apartments. One shot stopping power is usually higher than all hollow points, but they cost about 3X more.
The Glaser Safety Slug was designed in 1974 in response to the possibility of having to use a handgun on an airplane by the Sky Marshals. The concerns at that time were over penetration on soft tissue and ricochets on hard surfaces and possible overall excess penetration.
Today, Glaser offers this excellent performing round for civilian use. It is recommended for the urban dweller and anyone who is concerned with over penetration. Courthouse, hospital, amusement park and similar security agencies will also find that Glaser Safety Slug provides exactly what is needed.
http://www.corbon.com/Glaser.html
While that may have been the developmental impetus...airmarshalls and other airborne LE are carrying Speer Gold Dot...round effectiveness trumps all other considerations in a post 9-11 world...
The Cor Bon Glaser is designed for apartments. One shot stopping power is usually higher than all hollow points, but they cost about 3X more.
The Glaser Safety Slug was designed in 1974 in response to the possibility of having to use a handgun on an airplane by the Sky Marshals. The concerns at that time were over penetration on soft tissue and ricochets on hard surfaces and possible overall excess penetration.
Today, Glaser offers this excellent performing round for civilian use. It is recommended for the urban dweller and anyone who is concerned with over penetration. Courthouse, hospital, amusement park and similar security agencies will also find that Glaser Safety Slug provides exactly what is needed.
http://www.corbon.com/Glaser.html
While that may have been the developmental impetus...airmarshalls and other airborne LE are carrying Speer Gold Dot...round effectiveness trumps all other considerations in a post 9-11 world...
Originally Posted By: cancov
Not to begin a caliber debate, but even multiple shots doesn't always stop a threat. Take into consideration a reknown encounter now known as the "Miami Incident."
http://www.rrmemphis.com/op030.html
Found some other good info on that site:
http://www.rrmemphis.com/tips-tac.html
Not to begin a caliber debate, but even multiple shots doesn't always stop a threat. Take into consideration a reknown encounter now known as the "Miami Incident."
http://www.rrmemphis.com/op030.html
Found some other good info on that site:
http://www.rrmemphis.com/tips-tac.html
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Originally Posted By: AMC
I prefer the 124grn +p loads over 147s. I prefer the lighter and faster bullet and also find that 124grn bullets usually feed better than 147s. My choices are the federal HST 124grn +p, Speer gold dot 124gr +p and the winchester ranger 127grn +p+ (if you can find them). All have proven to extremely effective and reliable. Be advised that in order for a bullet to penetrate a bad guy deep enough to cause quick inacapacitation, it would have to penetrate several walls also.
Glasers are pure [censored]. Do a google search, they have been tested by alot of people and fired in ballistics gel, wet news paper, pork shoulder ect, they make a big initial wound but only penetrate 4-6 inches. I would stay away from those.
Ps,,,how many gun fights u been in,,newspapers and pork,dont shoot back, if a bullet penetrates 6 inches ur gonna bleed, and a head shot , wow, 4 inches or 6 inches is gonna mess ur brain up, way to much cowboy data there, IMHO,
They fail to meet what law enforcement meets as minimum penetration for ammo set by extensive research by the FBI. You are forgetting you never aim for the head in a self defense situation as its a smaller target. You aim for the vitals in the torso. And just because you make someone bleed does not mean you shut someone down. There are real world accounts of people taking two shots of 12ga birdshot to the chest and walking to the ambulance. They bled, but in a fight they would still be in it.
Glasers are snake oil. Millions of dollars of research by law enforcement says it wont penetrate enough. You cant argue with real data. 4 to 6 inches may shut down some bad guys, but not them all. And with your life on the line, why take the chance. Learn to shoot well, pick good ammo, and hope you never need it.
Originally Posted By: AMC
I prefer the 124grn +p loads over 147s. I prefer the lighter and faster bullet and also find that 124grn bullets usually feed better than 147s. My choices are the federal HST 124grn +p, Speer gold dot 124gr +p and the winchester ranger 127grn +p+ (if you can find them). All have proven to extremely effective and reliable. Be advised that in order for a bullet to penetrate a bad guy deep enough to cause quick inacapacitation, it would have to penetrate several walls also.
Glasers are pure [censored]. Do a google search, they have been tested by alot of people and fired in ballistics gel, wet news paper, pork shoulder ect, they make a big initial wound but only penetrate 4-6 inches. I would stay away from those.
Ps,,,how many gun fights u been in,,newspapers and pork,dont shoot back, if a bullet penetrates 6 inches ur gonna bleed, and a head shot , wow, 4 inches or 6 inches is gonna mess ur brain up, way to much cowboy data there, IMHO,
They fail to meet what law enforcement meets as minimum penetration for ammo set by extensive research by the FBI. You are forgetting you never aim for the head in a self defense situation as its a smaller target. You aim for the vitals in the torso. And just because you make someone bleed does not mean you shut someone down. There are real world accounts of people taking two shots of 12ga birdshot to the chest and walking to the ambulance. They bled, but in a fight they would still be in it.
Glasers are snake oil. Millions of dollars of research by law enforcement says it wont penetrate enough. You cant argue with real data. 4 to 6 inches may shut down some bad guys, but not them all. And with your life on the line, why take the chance. Learn to shoot well, pick good ammo, and hope you never need it.
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I'm with you Robenstein...in a gunfight, projectile performance and round placement are key...all other considerations are secondary (collateral damage, rounds penetrating airplane skin, whatever). The best performers are JHP...like Gold Dot
I believe in 3 rapid shots in center mass...(.40 S&W, Speer Gold Dot)...put them there and you won't have to worry about collateral damage/over penetration...
Of course, if the threat is still there after 3 rounds to center mass, I would consider, range dependent, a shot to the deadly triangle (defined by eyes and nose).
There is a 2 to the chest, 1 to the head school of thought, precisely because of body armor, khat, and other recent tactical experience from our troops in combat. But range, weapon type and a host of other considerations come into play on that discussion...
And the Miami incident? It precipitated the development of the 10mm...high velocity, moderately heavy, round with deep penetration...when agents' survival was at stake against a serious threat (large, armed, on drugs, clothing and other barriers), the FBI went looking for max penetration and high impact energy, not some silly round that broke apart to prevent overpenetration.
Now, the inability of some agents to handle that hot round (in the S&W 1066) led to the development of the .40S&W...but the 10mm still has the performance edge, and is one of my favorite calibers...
For the majority of self defense situations - a set of JHPs to center mass yields your best chance for survival.
I believe in 3 rapid shots in center mass...(.40 S&W, Speer Gold Dot)...put them there and you won't have to worry about collateral damage/over penetration...
Of course, if the threat is still there after 3 rounds to center mass, I would consider, range dependent, a shot to the deadly triangle (defined by eyes and nose).
There is a 2 to the chest, 1 to the head school of thought, precisely because of body armor, khat, and other recent tactical experience from our troops in combat. But range, weapon type and a host of other considerations come into play on that discussion...
And the Miami incident? It precipitated the development of the 10mm...high velocity, moderately heavy, round with deep penetration...when agents' survival was at stake against a serious threat (large, armed, on drugs, clothing and other barriers), the FBI went looking for max penetration and high impact energy, not some silly round that broke apart to prevent overpenetration.
Now, the inability of some agents to handle that hot round (in the S&W 1066) led to the development of the .40S&W...but the 10mm still has the performance edge, and is one of my favorite calibers...
For the majority of self defense situations - a set of JHPs to center mass yields your best chance for survival.
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Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Originally Posted By: AMC
I prefer the 124grn +p loads over 147s. I prefer the lighter and faster bullet and also find that 124grn bullets usually feed better than 147s. My choices are the federal HST 124grn +p, Speer gold dot 124gr +p and the winchester ranger 127grn +p+ (if you can find them). All have proven to extremely effective and reliable. Be advised that in order for a bullet to penetrate a bad guy deep enough to cause quick inacapacitation, it would have to penetrate several walls also.
Glasers are pure [censored]. Do a google search, they have been tested by alot of people and fired in ballistics gel, wet news paper, pork shoulder ect, they make a big initial wound but only penetrate 4-6 inches. I would stay away from those.
Ps,,,how many gun fights u been in,,newspapers and pork,dont shoot back, if a bullet penetrates 6 inches ur gonna bleed, and a head shot , wow, 4 inches or 6 inches is gonna mess ur brain up, way to much cowboy data there, IMHO,
Several gunfights actually (probably a lot more than you) a few of them involving the Army's standard issue m9 and fmj ammo (124gr FMJ) with it. From those experiences and other research I have done, relying on pain and bleeding is probably not going to stop a threat quickly.
I was trying to help the original poster with his question. You on the other hand, need help with your grammar and spelling before you start having a discussion about terminal effectiveness or anything serious for that matter. "what gonna happen when daddy carries a gun" Right, yeah, sure. Lots of people are listening to you with an attitude like that...NOT
I digress, Like others have stated, all pistol rounds are poor stoppers in comparison to high caliber rifles and shotguns, there are many reasons for that. Without getting into a huge debate about all this, I offer one easy solution to this question. Look at what pistol ammunition the law enforcement community trusts their lives with and you can probably bet it is a good choice. The most common picks are the speer gold dots, federal HST, winchester ranger and a few others. Gee, haven't we heard those somewhere before in this topic?
Originally Posted By: AMC
I prefer the 124grn +p loads over 147s. I prefer the lighter and faster bullet and also find that 124grn bullets usually feed better than 147s. My choices are the federal HST 124grn +p, Speer gold dot 124gr +p and the winchester ranger 127grn +p+ (if you can find them). All have proven to extremely effective and reliable. Be advised that in order for a bullet to penetrate a bad guy deep enough to cause quick inacapacitation, it would have to penetrate several walls also.
Glasers are pure [censored]. Do a google search, they have been tested by alot of people and fired in ballistics gel, wet news paper, pork shoulder ect, they make a big initial wound but only penetrate 4-6 inches. I would stay away from those.
Ps,,,how many gun fights u been in,,newspapers and pork,dont shoot back, if a bullet penetrates 6 inches ur gonna bleed, and a head shot , wow, 4 inches or 6 inches is gonna mess ur brain up, way to much cowboy data there, IMHO,
Several gunfights actually (probably a lot more than you) a few of them involving the Army's standard issue m9 and fmj ammo (124gr FMJ) with it. From those experiences and other research I have done, relying on pain and bleeding is probably not going to stop a threat quickly.
I was trying to help the original poster with his question. You on the other hand, need help with your grammar and spelling before you start having a discussion about terminal effectiveness or anything serious for that matter. "what gonna happen when daddy carries a gun" Right, yeah, sure. Lots of people are listening to you with an attitude like that...NOT
I digress, Like others have stated, all pistol rounds are poor stoppers in comparison to high caliber rifles and shotguns, there are many reasons for that. Without getting into a huge debate about all this, I offer one easy solution to this question. Look at what pistol ammunition the law enforcement community trusts their lives with and you can probably bet it is a good choice. The most common picks are the speer gold dots, federal HST, winchester ranger and a few others. Gee, haven't we heard those somewhere before in this topic?
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