Where's the VW 505.01 oil?

[blackman777]

Volkswagen 505.01 has no limit on how much antiwear sulfur or phosphorus can be used in the oil. CJ-4 does. Any my manual specifies 5w-40 not 30.
How do we know Redline is the best?
Mobil may have made *racing* 20 weight in 2002, but I needed a 0w-20 oil for my streetcar. Amsoil was the only one I could find. Believe me I would have preferred Mobil over amsoil.

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Volkswagen 505.01 has no limit on how much antiwear sulfur or phosphorus can be used in the oil. CJ-4 does.

Quite wrong.

They both have limits on SAPS. 505.01 places lower limits than does CJ-4/PC-10.

505.01 allows P > 0.07%; no limit on S (contolled by SA); SA max 0.8% by mass
CJ-4 allows P max 0.12%; S max 0.04%; SA max 1.0% by mass

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Mobil may have made *racing* 20 weight in 2002

What Clevy is talking about was the original Mobil 1 from the mid-70s. It was a 5w20 viscosity back when 10w40 ruled oil shelves.

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Any my manual specifies 5w-40 not 30.

It's possible as PDs had all kinds of incorrect manuals for a couple years.

Mine says this:

No mention of viscosity anywhere, only that the 505.01 standard must be met. This has been VW's stance for many years.

It's your car, run whatever you want in it. I choose to run the best oil I can, within reason, for my cam & lifters' longevity.

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: scurvy
505.01 allows P > 0.07%; no limit on S (contolled by SA); SA max 0.8% by mass
CJ-4 allows P max 0.12%; S max 0.04%; SA max 1.0% by mass


More ash in the CJ. Isn't that a bad thing? More wear? (I'm confused.) Also I'm not sure how S is limited by SA limits. Those are different chemicals (like H and H2O).

 

[electrolover]

Scurvy has these engines figured out. If I were you id listen to him well.
Just saying

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
More ash in the CJ. Isn't that a bad thing? More wear? (I'm confused.)


I can tell you're confused - you need to do quite a lot more reading before posting.

Here's a couple questions for you to think about, specific to this subject:
What does SAPS mean?
What in oil will generate SAPS? Why are those things in the oil? When might you need more or less of them?
How is the PD cam arranged?
What lubrication challenges does the engine exhibit?
What sort of lubricant and/or additive formulation & properties would be beneficial in this engine?

None of these answers have anything to do with VW or API specifications.

Good luck.

 

[blackman777]

Yeah I know what SAPS is. I notice you didn't actually answer my question. (shrug). So I'll just reach my own conclusions, since you decided not to help me understand how these things work:

- CJ-4 has more ash == more wear in my opinion. That's one of the reasons I think CJ is inferior to 505.01.

- I also see that CJ-4 limits the sulfur which means reduced lubricity. That's a second reason to consider CJ inferior to 505.01 (which has no S limit because it was not worried about poisoning particulate filters).

- Also CJ-4 is designed for large V6 engines, not tiny 4-cylinders like the VW spec was.

Anyway: I'm not trying to start an argument.
I'm just trying to understand why you think CJ-4 is better spec.

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Yeah I know what SAPS is. I notice you didn't actually answer my question. (shrug). So I'll just reach my own conclusions, since you decided not to help me understand how these things work:


I attempted to lead you in the direction of understanding how it works by going back to first principles. If you can't/won't do the leg work yourself, no amount of spoonfeeding it will gain you the ability to think critically about the subject at hand.

Specifically to your first statement, if you know what SAPS is, then you would understand how it limits S.

Originally Posted By: blackman777
- CJ-4 has more ash == more wear in my opinion. That's one of the reasons I think CJ is inferior to 505.01.

- I also see that CJ-4 limits the sulfur which means reduced lubricity. That's a second reason to consider CJ inferior to 505.01 (which has no S limit because it was not worried about poisoning particulate filters).

- Also CJ-4 is designed for large V6 engines, not tiny 4-cylinders like the VW spec was.


These statements are not true. They may be your opinions, but they are not facts.

I'm done trying to help you.
Good luck.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Yeah I know what SAPS is. I notice you didn't actually answer my question. (shrug). So I'll just reach my own conclusions, since you decided not to help me understand how these things work:

- CJ-4 has more ash == more wear in my opinion. That's one of the reasons I think CJ is inferior to 505.01.

- I also see that CJ-4 limits the sulfur which means reduced lubricity. That's a second reason to consider CJ inferior to 505.01 (which has no S limit because it was not worried about poisoning particulate filters).

- Also CJ-4 is designed for large V6 engines, not tiny 4-cylinders like the VW spec was.

Anyway: I'm not trying to start an argument.
I'm just trying to understand why you think CJ-4 is better spec.


You are completely missing the fact that the CJ-4 oils are usually certified for the Cummins, CAT, MACK....etc applications, which are far more demanding than 505.01.

And I think you mean Inline-6 engines..........

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
You are completely missing the fact that the CJ-4 oils are usually certified for the Cummins, CAT, MACK....etc applications, which are far more demanding than 505.01.

You can lead a horse to water...

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And I think you mean Inline-6 engines..........

I'm sure blackman777 has plenty of experience with V6 OTR trucks. And V6 BMWs.

All running factory approved lubricants, of course.

 

[weebl]

Originally Posted By: scurvy
Please take it from someone with 7 years' experience with a PD TDI... 505.01 certified oils will lead to shorter cam life than any name brand 5w40 synthetic CJ-4 oil.

Read up on cam life and 505.01 oil use at TDIClub. You'll find out why most of us that are still PD owners now use CJ-4 5w40 oil over VW-spec anything.

You know what VW will want to know when you bring an 8 year old PD in for a strange 'bupping' noise at idle that's low on power? It won't be what oil you've been using. It will be if you have $4300 for them to replace the cam, bearings, lifters & timing belt (and they'll probably do all of that badly wrong).

There's no reason to use a VW-spec lubricant in those engines except for warranty protection and the absolute newest PD that could possibly be out there in the US went out of powertrain warranty in 2011.

Do what you will with your own car, but you're setting yourself up for an expensive ride on the failtrain.



I never had a PD, but what Scurvy said is exactly what I would do if I had one. I also seem to recall there is an aftermarket cam, better designed for these engines, so when the time comes, look into that cam.

 

[antiqueshell]

VW is NOT going to recommend an oil that is going to increase wear on them, after all they are DESPERATELY trying to INCREASE reliability over all in all their products. The last thing they want is a product that will cause damage.

Like others have mentioned before although a lot of the specs of oil companies products are disclosed there are some proprietary additives they cannot be determined without very specialized testing equipment.

Unless one tracks their VW /Audi you should stick with what the manufacturer recommends. Granted if you can find a NON approved oil that exceeds the parameters of that VW spec and you are way out of warranty I say why not use that product.

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
You are completely missing the fact that the CJ-4 oils are usually certified for the Cummins, CAT, MACK....etc applications, which are far more demanding than 505.01.
Best point in the thread. Though I wouldn't make VW505.01 sound so weak. It's equal to MB228.31 which is only slightly less than Mack's EON-PP

 

[bmwtechguy]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy
Schaeffer's 9000 is my favorite and they recommend it for 505.01
Unfortunately the datasheet you linked does not say that. It says 505.00.


http://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/244-9000-td.pdf

Huh? Yes, both specs are listed beside each other in black and white on the TDS PDF webpage I linked. Probably not actually VW approved, but at least Schaeffer recommends it for the 505.01 spec. I get Schaeffers 9000 5W-40 for about $6-$7/qt., including tax and shipping.

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy
Schaeffer's 9000 is my favorite and they recommend it for 505.01.

...both specs are listed beside each other in black and white on the TDS PDF webpage I linked. Probably not actually VW approved, but at least Schaeffer recommends it for the 505.01 spec.
QUOTE: "Supreme 9000 SAE 5W-40 is formulated to meet and exceeds the following manufacturers’ specifications and requirements: .....Volkswagen 501.01, 505.00."

I repeat: Unfortunately the datasheet you linked does not say 505.01. That's the second time you claimed it did but it does not. The first time was an understandable mistake but the second time???

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
- Also CJ-4 is designed for large V6 engines, not tiny 4-cylinders like the VW spec was.

Anyway: I'm not trying to start an argument.
I'm just trying to understand why you think CJ-4 is better spec.


Yes, S and sulphated ash are different chemicals, but that's not the point. There isn't a lot of elemental sulphur in an engine. Look at the phosphorous limitations on various specifications. This has resulted in lowering of ZDDP, even though that isn't elemental phosphorous, either.

CJ-4 isn't designed just for large V6 engines. There are plenty of heavy duty diesel engines calling for that specification, including straight sixes and V8s. Aside from that, you're focusing too much on only the CJ-4 specification. Plenty of 505.01 oils are API SL. Does that mean the API SL specification is the be all and end all of performance and wear protection?

Read a few HDEO spec sheets, even the conventional ones, from the big names, like Delo, Delvac, and Rotella. These are not simply SM/CJ-4 lubes. SM/CJ-4 is their API designation only, and they meet far more specifications than that, and if you go to their synthetic counterparts, there are more specifications and builder approvals still.

 

[ELarsen]

I underscore the complete and thorough comments made by Scurvy. He summed-up a large body of evidence based knowledge on TDI PD motor oils from over on TDIClub.com. That's a big community and where the people who really know these engines hang out. Spend some time on the fuels, oils and lubricants portion of the site and you'll see oodles of UOAs and first hand accounts by mechanics regarding PD cam longevity and oil type. I understand your reluctance about deviating from "VW-approved" 505.01 oils but it really is a case of not wanting to bear certification costs, not because these oils can't cut the VW mustard. They are in fact superior in terms of protective performance.

Cheers,

 

[Clevy]

Scurvy seems to be an authority on these cars as shown by the wealth of knowledge shared in his posts. Personally I'd take his advice. Sounds like he knows what he is talking about.
But then again if I didn't know better skyship also reads like he knows what he's talking about too. And we all know the real skinny there.
I'm sorry scurvy for even making the comparison. It is nothing personal,just an observation

 

[bmwtechguy]

ok then. I misread that. sorry. still a good, proven oil.

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Unfortunately the datasheet you linked does not say 505.01. That's the second time you claimed it did but it does not. The first time was an understandable mistake but the second time???


Funny. I have the 05/2009 version of this TDS and it correctly lists 505.01. It's obviously a typo on the one linked (revised 01/2012).

C&P from the TDS I have:
"Supreme 9000 SAE 5W-40 is formulated to meet and exceeds the following manufacturers’ specifications and requirements: Military Specifications MIL-PRF-2104G and A-A-52306A, API Service Classifications CJ-4/CI-4/SM, CI-4 Plus Global Specification DHD-1, JASO DH-1 and DH-2, Mack EO-O Premium Plus-07, Caterpillar, Caterpillar ECF-1-a, ECF-2 ECF-3: Cummins CES 20081; Detroit Diesel 7SE 270, Detroit Diesel Power Guard Oil Specification 93K218, Detroit Diesel Series 2000/4000 Category 1 MTU Category Type II, Navistar, ACEA E7-08, ACEA E9-08, Duetz, Mercedes-Benz MB228.3, MB228.31, MB228.5, MB 229.1, MB229.3, MB229.5, Volvo VDS-4, MAN 271, MAN 3275, MTU Oil Category Type 2, Scania LD-F and LDF-2, Inveco, DAF and Volkswagen 502.00, 505.00, 505.01"

(emphasis mine)

Yes, they need to proofread more carefully, but typos and incorrect values go on TDS all the time. The fact that 501.01 is an ancient gasoline-only spec for pre-2000 MY vehicles should clue you in that this is just an honest typo.

And the fact that plenty of folks have tons of miles on this in PDs with much lower wear rates than they do on VW spec lubricants should tell you far more than any data sheet.

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
I'm sorry scurvy for even making the comparison. It is nothing personal,just an observation

Cheers, Clevy. No offense taken.

I'm in no way a guru on these cars/engines but I have owned one since new, done UOAs on it, combed through hundreds of others' UOAs on TDIClub and tried to gather as much reputable information as I could from a wide range of sources before deciding what I considered best for my engine's longevity.

For quite a while I was a stickler for VW spec lubricants as well, but after reading enough factual data on these engines and how they behave in the real world, I decided to try CJ-4 lubes instead and started getting back my best UOAs ever.

Lower cost, easier to get, longer OCIs and lower rates of wear metal generation sounds like a winner to me. My Golf has 205k km on it and happily motors along with no issues... many folks have already replaced a cam & lifters by now.

All I can do is offer my advice and suggestions.