Where is the Electricity going to come to charge EVs ?

[Silver]

The only answer I have is, "we did it with gasoline". Of course people weren't all witless buffoons back then. To guess at how long it will take is just a random guess. We built gasoline infrastructure. We'll just have to build charging infrastructure. As for battery cost, etc... well CD players were $500 when they debuted. Now they're $19.

I'm not biased for or against EV's from a political standpoint. I'm just sick of the archaic design of ICE's. Time to move on. And take shoelaces with you!

 

[atikovi]

Commercial FUSION will change everything. I have heard the old adage, it's always 10 years away, but I think were getting much closer than ever.

Same as the cure for cancer or even the common cold?

 

[alarmguy]

City of Manassas, Virginia municipal electric utility has diesel generators connected to the grid. I suspect that they used during times of peak load, the same way other utilities would use a natural gas "peaker" plant.

Those diesel generators will not come close to generating the amount of power and delivering that power as every gas station currently in the city delivers.

 

[vetteryan]

I didn’t even read more than a couple sentences of your post, the efficiency of delivering electricity to your home stands at around 50% at best.
I’ve heard the argument about how efficient the powerplants are, if you do some research you’ll learn about the massive loss of power getting the energy to your home.
I understand a lot of these posts are good-natured and well intended but it’s impossible with our current electrical infrastructure to deliver power to charge vehicles at every home, apartment building, condo, high rise, business, not only that but the arguments I’m seeing here do not even take into account, I don’t know about where you people live but in my community there’s three or more cars at each home.
As it is right now we have a peak power usage time of three hours a day at $12 a kilowatt hour.
Somebody else posted the power grid struggles in some areas of California, well I agree 100% but the power grid struggles all over this nation during any heatwave, god every summer NYC struggled, now go and plug two or three cars in at every home randomly in every community in America and you tell me the wind blowing and the sun shining is going to keep them charged up.
There is no way and we are going to need a massive building of nuclear power plants along with the infrastructure to carry the electricity to homes and businesses.

So far I haven’t seen anything how we would get past a maximum of 20% electric vehicles and as I previously posted more realistic about 10%. We don’t have the power we do not have the generation capacity and we do not have the infrastructure meaning powerlines to deliver that power.
Everyone has to look at the big picture not just people with large homes that can have solar panels what about the millions of people who live in apartments condominiums the list goes on and on and on.
Hope this all came out right I’m actually on my phone on the way home from the gym

I am glad you didn't read the rest. I will let you argue with Stanford University regarding transmission line losses. Clearly, you are not anywhere close to correct on the subject with your estimate of 50%. It turns out experts have studied that exact question in California at Stanford University and their conclusion was 6.8% is lost in transmission. You could read it yourself below instead of coming up with rudimentary estimates on your own.

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/harting1/

 

[brianl703]

Those diesel generators will not come close to generating the amount of power and delivering that power as every gas station currently in the city delivers.

They aren't sized to handle the load of the entire city, hence the term "peaker".

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

More importantly, who will put for the upgrades??


(I know the answer, do you?)

 

[IndyIan]

Those diesel generators will not come close to generating the amount of power and delivering that power as every gas station currently in the city delivers.

Keep in mind that probably only 16 to 20% of the energy pumped into internal combustion vehicles is actually used to move them. Hybrids get better mileage especially in city use. Total efficiency of an electric car from charger to wheels is 70 to 80%

For sure some electrical utilities aren't ready for much more peak capacity but there needs to be a lot more electric vehicles in most places for their charging to bump up peak demand. In any case natural gas generators are pretty cheap to build and run, and those could be used to keep electricity rates reasonable while the utilities balance generation with demand from the electric vehicle integration period.

 

[PimTac]

Electricity will be available in the future but at a much higher price than today and new conservation methods will ensure everyone can avail of it. By new conservation that means the authorities will tell you how much you can use and at what times of the day you can use it.

Conservation takes on a different twist these days.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

There already is plenty of available juice to charge these cars. All that is necessary is to ration electricity to those without EVs. That is going to happen.

Weird..you quote mis-quoted me.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

City of Manassas, Virginia municipal electric utility has diesel generators connected to the grid. I suspect that they used during times of peak load, the same way other utilities would use a natural gas "peaker" plant.

My bet is they're used to provide emergency power.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

The only answer I have is, "we did it with gasoline". Of course people weren't all witless buffoons back then. To guess at how long it will take is just a random guess. We built gasoline infrastructure. We'll just have to build charging infrastructure. As for battery cost, etc... well CD players were $500 when they debuted. Now they're $19.

I'm not biased for or against EV's from a political standpoint. I'm just sick of the archaic design of ICE's. Time to move on. And take shoelaces with you!

The crazy thing about gasoline is that the price has been grotesquely subsidized for decades but only a small percentage of the financial cost has been past down to consumers. The personal costs of course are felt by some but not all and even they don't always make the connection.

 

[OVERKILL]

Even if we used gasoline to produce the electricity we would probably need 70% less gas than currently even if electricity was produced at power plants using gasoline as the fuel source. Internal combustion engines are woefully inefficient, their thermal efficiency averages around 20% of fuel being turned into propulsion. Electric motors turn around 98% of energy into propulsion making them almost five times as efficient. In addition power plants are close to 98% efficient as well with all of their ways of recouping heat(citing coal). It is much more efficient (from a money standpoint and efficiency standpoint and emissions standpoint) to make one or several large power plants that are highly efficient than a separate one in each vehicle (millions).

Not sure where you are pulling those numbers, but they are wildly incorrect.
- Otto cycle combustion engines are 25-30% efficient
- Atkinson cycle combustion engines (Prius for example) are ~40% efficient
- Open cycle gas plants are around 30%-40% efficient, before transmission losses
- Combined Cycle gas plants are around 50-60% efficient, before transmission losses

Combined-cycle gas turbines (2022) | Ipieca

Topic last reviewed: November 2022 … Sectors: Upstream, Downstream … Category: Power and heat generation … Download as PDF … A combined-cycle gas turbine (CCGT) power plant uses the exhaust heat from gas turbines to generate steam with a heat recovery steam generator (HRSG). The produced steam...

www.ipieca.org

- Coal plants have a similar thermal efficiency to an Open Cycle gas plant, at 30-40%, before transmission losses

A car like a Prius using an Atkinson Cycle engine starts off more efficient, but its efficiency is improved even further by the use of regenerative braking and using the electric assist (which is charged during braking) during take-off and acceleration.

As far as the price to charge an EV you need to look at your calculations. I used to own a Chevy Volt and a full charge required 16-kilowatt hours and it enabled me to drive 40 to 55 miles. My current three-year contract for electricity is at 5.5 cents a kWh. That puts me at$0.88 for a full charge to drive 40 plus miles....not expensive. At your state's average of 13 cents a kWh, it would cost around $2....not expensive.

Yes, electric cars, charged at home (public charging can be as expensive as gasoline) are currently ridiculously cheap to operate. However, the main issue at present is that EV's aren't paying for road maintenance and repair (part of fuel taxes) and what that looks like going forward will definitely have an impact on how we charge EV's in the future and the cost of doing so.

In addition, electric cars allow us to get our fuel (electricity) from whatever means is cheapest. I.E. If coal goes up then use natural gas.

But both of those are high emissions sources. Properly penalized for pollution, they won't be cheap.

However, I believe solar and wind are about the cheapest form of energy we can currently make and we are in the process of scaling up our output from these sources. I predict that someday electricity will be almost free other than utility system maintenance.

Unlikely. A wind turbine is about $1million/MW and these companies will need to recoup their CAPEX. Here in Ontario, as soon as we eliminated the subsidies for wind and solar, installations completely stopped. The companies that own the wind farms won't build more capacity without a contract that makes them money, same with commercial and home solar. Then there's the cost of backing up that capacity for when it isn't working.

 

[PimTac]

My bet is they're used to provide emergency power.

Probably to the municipal government.

 

[JeffKeryk]

How long did it take, and the total co$t for you to get in the black?

Here's my best guess...
I did the solar project in March 2018; I think the cost was $29K including the new roof. With the Federal tax credit, the net price was about $17K.
I did not qualify for CA benefit because of the salary requirement.
There is a lotta sun in Los Gatos; I did not need a huge system. The price would be less today, of course. At the time, the calculations showed about 7 years to break even based on 3 years of PG&E invoices. FYI, I am pretty frugal; I rarely used the AC unless people were over. There are 2 people in our home, me and wifey.
In Dec 2018 I bought the Tesla Model 3; the dedicated 50A line to the garage cost me $600.
I use a lot more electricity nowadays as I am retired and home. Blast that AC! Sue has been working from home like so many others.
We use the Tesla more which saves maybe $50 per week in expensive CA gasoline.
And PG&E rates have gone up. All in, the 7 year break even point is probably in the ball park.
The other consideration is the increased home value via the solar project, but around here you are buying the zip code, not the house.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Buy a bunch of old Honda CRX HFs that get 50 mpg. Problem solved for the consumer.

 

[y_p_w]

Not sure where you are pulling those numbers, but they are wildly incorrect.
- Otto cycle combustion engines are 25-30% efficient
- Atkinson cycle combustion engines (Prius for example) are ~40% efficient
- Open cycle gas plants are around 30%-40% efficient, before transmission losses
- Combined Cycle gas plants are around 50-60% efficient, before transmission losses

Combined-cycle gas turbines (2022) | Ipieca

Topic last reviewed: November 2022 … Sectors: Upstream, Downstream … Category: Power and heat generation … Download as PDF … A combined-cycle gas turbine (CCGT) power plant uses the exhaust heat from gas turbines to generate steam with a heat recovery steam generator (HRSG). The produced steam...

www.ipieca.org

- Coal plants have a similar thermal efficiency to an Open Cycle gas plant, at 30-40%, before transmission losses

Highest efficiency with internal combustion engines is near peak power - basically just a matter of Carnot efficiency. Almost nobody would be using an ICE vehicle engine near peak power very often. My 227 HP engine is probably only generating about 20 HP at freeway speeds - maybe less. But that's dealing with the efficiency of the engine, and not all the parasitic losses from dealing with wind resistance, which really spike if I'm trying to drive that fast. That's why smaller engines in the same vehicle body yield better fuel economy. They're operating closer to the peak, but then they have less power on tap for acceleration, hills, towing, etc.

But industrial power plants run near peak output all the time. That's the primary difference.

The ideal for electric-powered vehicles is external power, like a 3rd rail or overhead lines. However, electric motors operate near their peak efficiency for almost their entire range. That's the biggest difference really.

 

[y_p_w]

Buy a bunch of old Honda CRX HFs that get 50 mpg. Problem solved for the consumer.

That would be scary as heck. And not sure about which generation, but I'm reading one showing a 0-60 MPH time of more than 14 seconds.

I also have a family of 3.

What electric gets the consumer decent efficiency over a larger range of speeds and conditions. An ICE can be sized for better performance or better fuel economy (at the expense of better performance).

 

[Shel_B]

You are correct.

I've heard California is already telling people not to charge, the grid can't handle it.

But, hey...

But, hey ... I live in California, pay a reasonable amount of attention to this subject, and have never heard or read that we shouldn't charge our cars.

Sources, links, substantiation please ...

 

[Dave1027]

I live in CA; no one told me not to charge my car. Can you identify your source? Thanks!
By the way, my electricity bill runs about $9 per month.

But how much did your solar panels cost? Edit to add, I see you answered that. $17K.

 

[Shel_B]

What electric gets the consumer decent efficiency over a larger range of speeds and conditions. An ICE can be sized for better performance or better fuel economy (at the expense of better performance).

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that EVs are in their infancy and technology is improving at a fairly good pace. What may not work for some today will work better for more people tomorrow.