Where is the Electricity going to come to charge EVs ?

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Yes, but still doesn't overcome the fact solar panels work on solar energy, and AZ is no where near the poles.

Also, people in NorCal, with the fires, thought that with solar, when they are in a blackout induced by their energy company, they still have power.... nope... not without batteries.

Phoenix is the sunniest city in the entire United States.

Not sure why everyone has to think in absolutes. No, solar isn't the solution for everything and obviously we can't run solely on it. But more people having solar will lighten the load on the power grid substantially for during the day. And what do we have for night time electricity production? Power plants. Just like we have today.
 
Here in progressive California all new home construction is mandated to have solar panels on the roof. Nice of the politicians to add $10-$15 thousand to the already outrageous price of a home here, but that's the way people voted.

Anyway, I suspect a lot of EV's will be sold to the same people who are buying those homes and they won't think much about the cost of charging, they will just plug right in to the outlet in their garage.

In some cities, certain electricity providers are charging rates way beyond what others are paying. I'll bet those customers will find the break even point for installing solar systems comes a lot sooner than they anticipated.
The incremental cost to installing solar in a housing tract is minimal as compared to a single home installation. Some new houses are 100% electric; no gas furnace, water heater, stove, etc. Pretty sweet deal!
The break even point is probably 5 years or less. Solar is a huge no-brainer in CA and in housing tract development is even better.
My electricity bill is about $9 per month.
 
wooden sticks holding power wires up is nothing to hang your hat on in an all electric system.

There's nothing but "wooden sticks holding power wires up" between the pole nearest my house and the substation. Only about the last 500 feet to my house is underground.

Despite that, the longest power outage I've ever had, in the 5 years I've lived here, has been about 3 hours and that was unusual.

My power rarely goes out.

It's all about maintenance and keeping the ROW cleared of trees. Some power companies are not very good at that.

And underground lines are not without their own problems. I once lived in a house where the power went out EVERY single time it rained. That went on several years. The problem was in an underground line. And it took that long to be fixed because it was underground (and the power company didn't want to take the time to fix it).
 
When these vehicles start needing battery replacements people will wake up to the fact the got a pig in a poke and robbed blind.
Battery technology, the grid, the public transportation system are all nowhere near what it needs to be, good God the USA grid is not much better than Sub Saharan third world, wooden sticks holding power wires up is nothing to hang your hat on in an all electric system.
They keep talking about how the Europeans can do it but Europe and the USA have nothing in common. They are small countries with advanced infrastructure and public transportation systems because of their draconian high tax rates, but even they are sucking wind having done away with the nuke plants.

This is a battery for a 2016 Spark EV.

It is possible that when the battery in our Model 3 is not longer suitable for the car I can use it to store energy from my solar panels for use at night.
 
Solar works when the sun is hitting it. That's not necessarily the case at night, unless you live near the north and south poles, where at night during specific timeframes in the summer, it's still bright outside.

If you have batteries for your panels, then it can store excess energy that you don't use during the day, so it can be used at night, otherwise, you'll be using the grid energy.

Solar is certainly different, where the peak production happens during the daytime when demand is highest, but it obviously goes to zero at night. It kind of goes against the current time of use preference to overnight electricity consumption where the demand (especially from refrigeration and HVAC) is low. Those are really the biggest users of electricity.

I have heard of the use of energy storage, even though it clearly has losses. Either battery farms (like Tesla's) or even pumping water and then using generators. There would need to be overcapacity to do that.
 
Solar works when the sun is hitting it. That's not necessarily the case at night, unless you live near the north and south poles, where at night during specific timeframes in the summer, it's still bright outside.

If you have batteries for your panels, then it can store excess energy that you don't use during the day, so it can be used at night, otherwise, you'll be using the grid energy.

Years ago I had a discussion with an engineering manager at a local company that made solar inverters. I asked what they did with batteries, and he said that their system wasn't geared with that in mind. They expected that their customers would be producing more electricity than they used, which went to the grid for credit, and then the customer would use grid power at night.

However, I looked at what their current offerings are now, and they have complete systems that include home battery management and off the grid capabilities.
 
I've spoken to both city planners and the engineers here at the University where I work. It will take years to update the grid. Any politicians claiming they will make everything electric by XX date have zero involvement in these types of projects and have no knowledge of zoning or infrastructure. It will happen, but will be gradual. Solar will be a huge part of it, but that will only account for some of the needed power, especially in certain locations.

With more people buying EVs more of the grid will need to be updated to support the additional power (think of it like an internet network). It's one thing if you live on a street where a few of the houses own EVs, it's another story when most of them do.
 
I look at some thing most don't realize is it is going to be a long time before EV becomes main stream. All those that live in apartments have no way to charge. I don't see those complexes installing charging stations any time soon.

College students, at least those living in dorms and apartments plus they couldn't afford current EV's now anyway unless the price comes way down. Heck, they can't even pay their student loans.

Also, I know it is a small percentage, but military members, like here in NC Camp Lejeune and Fort Bragg, looking at 56k personnel on each base if not more. No infrastructure to charge there as well. It seems the Sheetz gas stations around here are installing Tesla chargers. Makes good sense on their part. Since you can get Made To Order food there. The one by us has super chargers so a Tesla can charge pretty fast.

I know in time most of the major chains will install chargers, like Outback Steak house, Logan's, Olive Garden and such, at least one would think they would to attract the EV owners.
 
Even if we used gasoline to produce the electricity we would probably need 70% less gas than currently even if electricity was produced at power plants using gasoline as the fuel source. Internal combustion engines are woefully inefficient, their thermal efficiency averages around 20% of fuel being turned into propulsion. Electric motors turn around 98% of energy into propulsion making them almost five times as efficient. In addition power plants are close to 98% efficient as well with all of their ways of recouping heat(citing coal). It is much more efficient (from a money standpoint and efficiency standpoint and emissions standpoint) to make one or several large power plants that are highly efficient than a separate one in each vehicle (millions).
Why even mention gasoline when there's basically no power plants that run on gasoline? Some natural gas power plants can also run on oil in an emergency when there's a gas curtailment or other issue but gas and oil for power generation isn't generally used.

I check my local grid once in a while. Power basically comes from 36% Natural Gas 33% Nuclear 20% Renewables and 10% Hydro.


Check out the California one.

 
According to this put simply it would take 25 solar panels where we lived in Pa to equal the annual output of 15 panels where we live now in Az.
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I'm not sure why EV's are such a hot topic, while renewables for home/industry are rarely ever in the news. According to the EPA, transportation only makes up 14% of emissions, while home electricity and heating makes up 25% of global emissions and industry another 21%. We could make a much larger dent in emissions by focusing on renewables for buildings (like requiring solar on new homes/businesses) than cars.
 
It will all come down to regulation.

Here in Ontario, Pickering nuclear, which is a >4GW nuclear plant, is slated to close in 2025 because it was cheaper for OPG to buy gas plants ($2.8 billion) than refurbish it ($10 billion). So, despite all the crowing by government and utilities about "net zero" and "clean, green energy", ultimately, what drives everything is still money.

Carbon taxes are supposed to manipulate this behaviour, but conveniently, 90% of gas plant emissions are exempt from the carbon tax. So, it'll kick you in the butt if you are burning coal, but if you switch to NG, you get to emit for free basically.

Ontario performed a coal phaseout in the early 2000's. We invested 10's of billion of dollars in subsidizing wind and solar on 20 year contracts, but, because neither provides reliable baseload power, ultimately, what provided the electricity to replace the coal plants was reactivated and refurbished Nuclear. 70% came from the reactivation and refurbishment of 3.2GW at the Bruce site, and 20% came from the reactivation and refurbishment of Pickering units 1 and 4.

Both wind and solar produce reliance on natural gas peaking capacity. I will comment on both individually:
- For solar, it is the morning and evening ramps (duck curve) where demand early in the day and late in the day is not met due to the angle of the sun. This is exasperated in the winter where the sun appears later and departs earlier. If you are heating or running air conditioning with solar, clearly overnight is problematic, even if you run it less, but these morning/evening ramps are also a problem. Several hours of onsite storage to buffer these demand spikes/ramps could reduce their peakiness, but you still have the problem of overnight demand, which is met, presently, by baseload generation, which is often coal, gas or nuclear (and in some locations, hydro).

Solar has reasonable capacity value at low penetration levels during the day, but quickly starts to reduce as capacity increases. This is because, as we've already discussed, we know it is not going to produce, or produce significantly, for a good chunk of our 24hrs, which means there has to be another source running to cover for that period. If that source is already a lower emissions source than solar (nuclear or hydro) we are not improving our emissions intensity, and we are impacting the economics of those operations. If these are not low emissions sources, like gas, then we do improve emissions intensity for that period, but we also still impact the economics, so, during periods where solar isn't available, in a market-type system, these plants will just bid in at a higher value. So, your overall cost of generation profile develops much larger swings in it.

Presently, solar is still paid more generously than it should be; that is, it isn't hit for real transmission costs and the per kWh cost rebated to home users is either a subsidy (FIT) or a net metering arrangement where they are reimbursed retail against their bills. They are not paid market rate, which is what traditional generators get paid during these periods. Australia is already having problems with this and curtailing people's home solar output to limit grid penetration, because the other artifact of too much solar is a total absence of inertia, which can lead to grid stability issues. This of course PO'd people who were counting on their solar system paying for itself by back-feeding the grid.

- For wind, it tends to disappear whenever we get hot or cold spells. This is true whether you are in or on the ocean like the UK, California and Nova Scotia, or deep inland like Ontario and Germany. Wind's peak production tends to be during temperate periods where demand is pretty average/mediocre. Wind can also disappear for weeks at a time during a hot spell or cold snap, meaning a few hours of home storage isn't going to be much help. This absolutely locks in some form of alternative power generation.

Wind has an extremely low capacity value; one that approaches zero. This is because it produces grossly out of phase with demand. Wind is a popular pairing with natural gas (here in Ontario, the majority of wind farms are owned by fossil fuel interests) because they get to ride the subsidy (tax credit, FIT, REC...etc) and then also provide the backup power, at a premium, for when wind isn't delivering. So, say a baseload plant averaged $0.038/kWh, if they replace that with a combo of wind and backup gas, they get the revenue from the wind, which has basically zero OPEX, and, they get the higher revenue from the backup gas, because they are bidding in to prevent grid collapse and there aren't other sources in the market to compete against.

The combo of wind and gas is claimed to reduce overall emissions intensity, but there's some conflict taking place on that because the fast-ramp peaking plants (OCGT) or running a CCGT in fast-ramp mode, greatly increases the emissions intensity over baseload operation, so the overall reduction in emissions by replacing capacity with wind is not as great as one might expect. Couple that with the fact that you are running those gas plants the most during periods of high demand.

Of course a wind and gas combo have a higher combined emissions intensity than any other "green" sources save biomass (which is a joke). So retiring a nuke for example, and then replacing its output with wind and gas is a huge step backwards.


So, to get back to EV's, if we are charging overnight, regulation is going to dictate what that looks like source-wise. If it is wind and gas, well, you aren't making a huge difference over driving an efficient ICE vehicle in terms of emissions intensity, and would be worse off than an ultra efficient vehicle like a Prius. Now, if your main source of electricity was coal, the emissions intensity will actually be higher with the EV.

With carbon taxes properly applied, electricity rates will absolutely go up, and this will make charging EV's more expensive. Of course this also makes nuclear cheaper than gas.

The problem with nuclear is that it makes wind generation completely useless. There's absolutely no reason to build the Rube Goldberg of wind and gas if you can achieve a lower emissions intensity with the nuke. Also, a nuke/gas pairing (gas peaking) is lower emissions if you lack hydro and a nuke/solar/gas combo is lower emissions still, bested only by a nuke/solar/storage combo to cover the morning/evening ramps. This necessarily limits solar installation capacity however, because you don't want solar eating into your low emissions baseload power during the day.

For us in Ontario, the ideal combo would be nuclear + hydro with a limited level of unsubsidized utility solar to reduce daytime peaking, and hydro can be ramped in the morning/evening to cover those ramps, or even a little bit of gas if necessary. However, we did build the Rube Goldberg and now dump wind on the US market, sometimes at negative prices while we subsidize the contract cost of $0.148/kWh, while we burn some trees in former coal plants and pay an average rate to solar of just under $0.50/kWh. And yet despite all that complexity and cost, nuclear + hydro produce 85% of our electricity.

We recently had a group here advocate for home storage with electric F-150's as the panacea for gas usage in the province. My response:
I did the math on the “million F-150’s” the other day, it was 9.6GW for 13 hours, assuming all million were fully charged and would stay grid connected for the duration. Gas, right now, without Pickering, on a low demand Sunday night would be 6GW; 8GW ~6PM. If we go back to Wednesday the 12th of January, wind collapsed for ~36 hours, 848MW and dropping at 4PM, not recovering until 4AM Friday. This was also when Quebec demand exceeded supply and they were importing from Ontario. Gas was ~5,600MW; so over 8GW without Pickering.
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If all 1 million F-150's were the Extended range variety with the 131kWh battery and they were all fully charged and capable of being completely drawn-down, that's 131GWh. During the period in question gas provided >200GWh.
A few days later, early on the 20th, wind collapsed again, but gas demand was even higher, crossing 7,000MW and not dropping below 5,000MW until the 22nd. 43 hours. Without Pickering that would have been 9,700MW; >8,600MW for the duration; 370GWh, roughly 3x the Gibbons fleet.
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If we take a gander back at our Quebec graph, we can see that this was again a period where demand exceeded supply and they were importing from Ontario.

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To put this in perspective, there are only 8.5 million registered vehicles under 4.5 tonnes in Ontario. The "Gibbons scenario" assumes 1 million of those will be replaced by F-150 Lightning pick-up trucks, but we've determined that's not sufficient. If we triple that to 3 million, to cover this most recent period, ignoring the unfeasible logistics, state of charge, full discharge cycle...etc. That's 35% of all vehicles under 4.5 tonnes registered in Ontario that would have to be extended range F-150's to prop-up the grid.

Note that this was all during an extreme cold snap. If everyone was heating with electricity, demand would have been almost double what we see there. This is of course also the time of year where solar capacity factor approaches zero, as contribution during the day is only a few hours, and zero if it is snowing.

Then, we get the summer!

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Even if we used gasoline to produce the electricity we would probably need 70% less gas than currently even if electricity was produced at power plants using gasoline as the fuel source. Internal combustion engines are woefully inefficient, their thermal efficiency averages around 20% of fuel being turned into propulsion. Electric motors turn around 98% of energy into propulsion making them almost five times as efficient. In addition power plants are close to 98% efficient as well with all of their ways of recouping heat(citing coal). It is much more efficient (from a money standpoint and efficiency standpoint and emissions standpoint) to make one or several large power plants that are highly efficient than a separate one in each vehicle (millions).

As far as the price to charge an EV you need to look at your calculations. I used to own a Chevy Volt and a full charge required 16-kilowatt hours and it enabled me to drive 40 to 55 miles. My current three-year contract for electricity is at 5.5 cents a kWh. That puts me at$0.88 for a full charge to drive 40 plus miles....not expensive. At your state's average of 13 cents a kWh, it would cost around $2....not expensive.

In addition, electric cars allow us to get our fuel (electricity) from whatever means is cheapest. I.E. If coal goes up then use natural gas. However, I believe solar and wind are about the cheapest form of energy we can currently make and we are in the process of scaling up our output from these sources. I predict that someday electricity will be almost free other than utility system maintenance.

Credentials: Operated a large electrical distribution system in the Midwest and have a degree in economics
I didn’t even read more than a couple sentences of your post, the efficiency of delivering electricity to your home stands at around 50% at best.
I’ve heard the argument about how efficient the powerplants are, if you do some research you’ll learn about the massive loss of power getting the energy to your home.
I understand a lot of these posts are good-natured and well intended but it’s impossible with our current electrical infrastructure to deliver power to charge vehicles at every home, apartment building, condo, high rise, business, not only that but the arguments I’m seeing here do not even take into account, I don’t know about where you people live but in my community there’s three or more cars at each home.
As it is right now we have a peak power usage time of three hours a day at $12 a kilowatt hour.
Somebody else posted the power grid struggles in some areas of California, well I agree 100% but the power grid struggles all over this nation during any heatwave, god every summer NYC struggled, now go and plug two or three cars in at every home randomly in every community in America and you tell me the wind blowing and the sun shining is going to keep them charged up.
There is no way and we are going to need a massive building of nuclear power plants along with the infrastructure to carry the electricity to homes and businesses.

So far I haven’t seen anything how we would get past a maximum of 20% electric vehicles and as I previously posted more realistic about 10%. We don’t have the power we do not have the generation capacity and we do not have the infrastructure meaning powerlines to deliver that power.
Everyone has to look at the big picture not just people with large homes that can have solar panels what about the millions of people who live in apartments condominiums the list goes on and on and on.
Hope this all came out right I’m actually on my phone on the way home from the gym🙃
 
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