When to use an oil additive.

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: electrolover
I dont care if you use it or not. But it seems like people who dig arx and folks who like other adds are always bickering. Use whatever you want and voice your opinions, but we should all be respectful to each other....myself included.

I have not tryed arx yet, but I would like to put it to my own test someday. That being said Frank is nasty and his site is well set up to sell product.


Reckon that if you didn't, you would not of brought it up. Especially quoting a message of mine in which I never metioned the product.

Reckon that if you do try it, you should ask your self what perceived problem you're trying to solve. Then ask yourself what you think the oil formulators left out that would make you want to try it.

I used it in a 97 Camaro back years ago. Did free the rings, compression went up. Used it in the BMW to fix a problem that mmo failed to keep fixed. (Something one poster always forgets/ignores.)

So FM has a nasty side. So what. The MMO pushers, as the late Gary Allan pointed out, get the same way.

So how did your road trip back to Texas go? Running pyb/kreen, changing oil every 500 miles?




I dont really know what your talking bout. But my point is, just because you like one additive over another doesn't mean you have to attack people who use something else.
Like I said. YOUR BUT HURT BECAUSE PEOPLE BAG ON AUTO-RX. let it go dude.

 

[skyship]

NEW ARTICLE FOR ADDAHOLICS

Don't you all just love that big red box!!!
Ford only use bold black letters in their warranty.

Do not use supplemental engine oil additives, cleaners or other engine treatments.
They are unnecessary and could lead to engine damage that is not covered by Ford
warranty.

Fun to see the Moo oil lovers are fighting with the Rex engine folks. What happened to to the Cream the oil fan?

 

[Mystic]

Skyship it took long enough for you to find this. Can you find the similiar warnings from other car makers, such as GM and Toyota?

Why do so many dealerships offer their own oil supplements, such as BG products? And at the website that Trav told people about, concerning the engine flush product used in Germany, it was mentioned at that website that Toyota was coming out with its own engine flush.

And Skyship, I think everybody wants to know, why are you so determined to convince everybody to stop using oil supplements and engine cleaners?

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Skyship it took long enough for you to find this. Can you find the similiar warnings from other car makers, such as GM and Toyota?

Why do so many dealerships offer their own oil supplements, such as BG products? And at the website that Trav told people about, concerning the engine flush product used in Germany, it was mentioned at that website that Toyota was coming out with its own engine flush.

And Skyship, I think everybody wants to know, why are you so determined to convince everybody to stop using oil supplements and engine cleaners?


I'm not looking for warnings I was just checking on which Ford engines have switched to 20 grades. All the main manufacturers publish some type of warning about oil additives and some publish warnings about fuel and coolant additives, although there are a number of approved fuel additives. Warnings are normally in the handbook and warranty terms.
Dealers are just trying to make a profit, they will sell anything including snake oils. GM even decided to use a low Zinc oil some years ago and then sold a Zinc supplement to go with it!
I don't think any high quality car dealers like Merc, BMW or Volvo sell any oil additives but they would have an approved fuel additive or two available in the US. Subaru used to have a coolant stop leak approved and one of the others did have an engine oil stop leak approved in the days before HM oils were available.
Toyota might have an approved flush machine that requires a special cleaner or even have approved a pre OCI idle flush for their dealers to use.

I like folks to understand more than just the advertising, they should understand the risk factors involved in ignoring handbook and warranty warnings. Also for some odd reason the forums do seem to help snake oil sales, because if a product works the user rants on about how it cured every fault in his engine, increased power, reduced wear metals and cured the common cold, BUT if the engine fails they say nothing, probably because they feel like a muppet using the can of snake oil.

 

[electrolover]

Im still waiting to see all these failed engines

 

[TuBon_gRips]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
Im still waiting to see all these failed engines

Yes, Lord Skyship. School us.

 

[skyship]

COOL PIC!!

Engine flush failures

Just look down the image search or at the web sites for lots of pics of blown engines and turbos. Start after the first few pages as there is a lot of advertising.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
I like folks to understand more than just the advertising

Do you really believe anyone cares what you like?

 

[skyship]

VOLVO WARNINGS (2012)
Fuel specifications
Some U.S. and Canadian gasolines contain an octane enhancing additive called methyl-
cyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl(MMT). If such fuels are used, your Emission Control System performance may be affected, and the Check Engine Light (malfunction indicator lamp) located on your instrument panel may light. If this occurs, please return your vehicle to an authorized Volvo retailer for service.

Oil specifications
Only full synthetic oil meeting ACEA A5/B5 requirements should be used. Lower quality
oils may not offer the same engine performance or engine protection. Volvo recommends Castrol.
OIL ADDITIVES MUST NOT BE USED.

(One big change is they have now said fully synthetic A5/B5)

 

[Mystic]

So let me get this straight Skyship-you are saying that GM sold a low zinc oil and then sold a zinc supplement along with the low zinc oil. That is quite an accusation! Do you have any documentation for that? Presumably millions of GM owners would have a case against GM if all of that was true because if they did not buy the zinc supplement the zinc (antiwear) additive level would be too low in their car and truck engines and they would have increased wear.

And let me get this straight-Mercedes, Volvo and BMW are high quality car dealers but GM, Ford, etc., are not? Are we talking just about the dealerships or are we talking about the corporations-Ford, GM, BMW, etc. But is that maybe just a little bias saying that Mercedes, Volvo, BMW, etc., are higher in quality than Ford, GM, Toyota, etc? I don't know about you Skyship but I consider a Lexus (from Toyota) to be a pretty high quality automobile. I didn't know that only Mercedes, BMW, Volvo sell high quality automobiles.

Now the dealerships of course are run by independent business people. But they are representing GM, Ford, Toyota, BMW, or whatever because they are selling cars and trucks for those corporations. So if oil supplements and engine cleaners are so bad maybe Ford, GM, etc., need to write no oil supplements and no engine cleaners into the contracts they make with those business people who own the dealerships.

Frankly, Skyship, I have a very hard time imagining that GM is deliberately going to sell a low zinc oil so that people will have to buy a zinc oil supplement. Can we see some sort of documentation on that?

Or will there again be no documentation like the runaway turbo car that had some sort of engine cleaner in the engine?

 

[Mystic]

And Skyship since you have such a good relationship with all of these labs why don't you tell us which motor oils are good and which are bad? After all, I don't want to buy a motor oil that has that engine killing moly in it. Maybe you can supply us with a list of quality motor oils and poor quality motor oils.

And I guess if I want a quality automobile from a quality dealership I need to buy Mercedes, Volvo, or BMW? Is that correct Skyship?

 

[skyship]

A swift copy and paste job from a book by David Mann:

5. COMPLEX CHEMICAL ADDITIVES VS. AFTERMARKET ADDITIVES
Now that you have learned some of the basic chemical additives engineered into a motor
oil by highly skilled chemists, scientists and lubrication engineers I ask you to think
about this question: how can it be that an aftermarket additive company can come out
with an off-the-shelf additive that they claim you can pour into any motor oil and it will perform all kinds of phenomenal things the motor oil as engineered by the oil
manufacturer seemingly cannot?
I have not seen an aftermarket additive company provide independent ASTM, SAE and
ISO Certified Laboratory Test Data substantiating their claims. First of all, the chemistry of a particular motor oils is proprietary and it is not plausible that an aftermarket additive company can engineer one additive to enhance the performance of any motor oil without knowing the exact chemical composition of that particular motor oil. Different base stock motor oils and manufacturer additive package formulations each respond differently to aftermarket oil additives.
Secondarily, a base oil formulation, which is inferior, cannot be converted into a top
quality motor oil simply by pouring in an aftermarket oil additive. What works in one
motor oil may have totally different effects in another brand and/or type of motor oil.
As an engineer with an entire career of experience in the auto industry I have not seen
any documented test data from an OEM auto manufacturers R&D labs that can substantiate the use of aftermarket oil additives.

As a side note, I know of two auto-parts stores within a half-mile of each other. One is a well-known family owned high quality performance type store. The owners of this store use the products they sell and also design and build racing and performance cars and have a full machine shop. They will not sell any type or brand of aftermarket oil additive. Yet, just down the road the owner of a large discount chain walked down the aisle with myself and a business associate where he has at least a dozen different aftermarket oil additives on display and waves his hand as he walks by these additives and says “ this stuff is ineffective, but we sell a lot of it”.
In fact, “in the case of oil additives, there is a considerable volume of evidence against their effectiveness. This evidence comes from well-known and identifiable expert
sources, including independent research laboratories, state universities major engine
manufacturers, and even NASA” (c).
Additionally, as an engineer at one of the major automotive engineering and
manufacturing companies, I have the opportunity to work with some of the worlds most
skilled and knowledgeable engineers from one of the most successful and well-known
national race teams in history. None, and I mean absolutely none, of their cars use an
aftermarket oil additive. They only use synthetic oil, and not just any synthetic oil but the absolute best synthetic oil there is.

In summary, I do not recommend the use of any aftermarket oil additives, regardless of
how convincing their claims are. Instead, I recommend that you take the time to research
the many different brands of premium quality synthetic motor oil on the market.

 

[demarpaint]

Skyship you just don't get it do you? Some additives have a purpose in certain instances. Instances where oil alone won't clean up a mess, silence a lifter, slow or stop a leak, or just buy someone some extra time with a beater. Not everyone bought a new car from day one, and pampered it through its entire life. Some people buy someone else's headache and find out when its too late, others buy a nightmare by design. In these cases a top tier synthetic is not going to do much, tear down, pulling valve covers, or dropping an oil pan might be something too difficult for the owner, or too expensive. In these cases an additive has it place. WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO GRASP THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT? Even you were recommending idle flushes, [additives] or flush machines [which require an additive]. What's the problem? Is it you just like to preach to people who really don't care what you say? Or is it too difficult to see someone else's point of view?

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: skunkship
In summary, I do not recommend the use of any aftermarket oil additives, regardless of
how convincing their claims are. Instead, I recommend that you take the time to research
the many different brands of premium quality synthetic motor oil on the market.



Someone beam this guy up. Skyship no one cares what you recommend and don't. What happened to the idle flushes?

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: skyship
A swift copy and paste job from a book by David Mann:

5. COMPLEX CHEMICAL ADDITIVES VS. AFTERMARKET ADDITIVES
Now that you have learned some of the basic chemical additives engineered into a motor
oil by highly skilled chemists, scientists and lubrication engineers I ask you to think
about this question: how can it be that an aftermarket additive company can come out
with an off-the-shelf additive that they claim you can pour into any motor oil and it will perform all kinds of phenomenal things the motor oil as engineered by the oil
manufacturer seemingly cannot?
I have not seen an aftermarket additive company provide independent ASTM, SAE and
ISO Certified Laboratory Test Data substantiating their claims. First of all, the chemistry of a particular motor oils is proprietary and it is not plausible that an aftermarket additive company can engineer one additive to enhance the performance of any motor oil without knowing the exact chemical composition of that particular motor oil. Different base stock motor oils and manufacturer additive package formulations each respond differently to aftermarket oil additives.
Secondarily, a base oil formulation, which is inferior, cannot be converted into a top
quality motor oil simply by pouring in an aftermarket oil additive. What works in one
motor oil may have totally different effects in another brand and/or type of motor oil.
As an engineer with an entire career of experience in the auto industry I have not seen
any documented test data from an OEM auto manufacturers R&D labs that can substantiate the use of aftermarket oil additives.

As a side note, I know of two auto-parts stores within a half-mile of each other. One is a well-known family owned high quality performance type store. The owners of this store use the products they sell and also design and build racing and performance cars and have a full machine shop. They will not sell any type or brand of aftermarket oil additive. Yet, just down the road the owner of a large discount chain walked down the aisle with myself and a business associate where he has at least a dozen different aftermarket oil additives on display and waves his hand as he walks by these additives and says “ this stuff is ineffective, but we sell a lot of it”.
In fact, “in the case of oil additives, there is a considerable volume of evidence against their effectiveness. This evidence comes from well-known and identifiable expert
sources, including independent research laboratories, state universities major engine
manufacturers, and even NASA” (c).
Additionally, as an engineer at one of the major automotive engineering and
manufacturing companies, I have the opportunity to work with some of the worlds most
skilled and knowledgeable engineers from one of the most successful and well-known
national race teams in history. None, and I mean absolutely none, of their cars use an
aftermarket oil additive. They only use synthetic oil, and not just any synthetic oil but the absolute best synthetic oil there is.

In summary, I do not recommend the use of any aftermarket oil additives, regardless of
how convincing their claims are. Instead, I recommend that you take the time to research
the many different brands of premium quality synthetic motor oil on the market.


That book extract is mostly in reference to aftermarket anti wear additives and not flushes. The author is an engineer, so I doubt if it crossed him mind that anyone would add solvents to an engine oil and then drive around. Most of the advertising is currently for anti wear additives rather than flushes.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: skyship
A swift copy and paste job from a book by David Mann:

5. COMPLEX CHEMICAL ADDITIVES VS. AFTERMARKET ADDITIVES
Now that you have learned some of the basic chemical additives engineered into a motor
oil by highly skilled chemists, scientists and lubrication engineers I ask you to think
about this question: how can it be that an aftermarket additive company can come out
with an off-the-shelf additive that they claim you can pour into any motor oil and it will perform all kinds of phenomenal things the motor oil as engineered by the oil
manufacturer seemingly cannot?
I have not seen an aftermarket additive company provide independent ASTM, SAE and
ISO Certified Laboratory Test Data substantiating their claims. First of all, the chemistry of a particular motor oils is proprietary and it is not plausible that an aftermarket additive company can engineer one additive to enhance the performance of any motor oil without knowing the exact chemical composition of that particular motor oil. Different base stock motor oils and manufacturer additive package formulations each respond differently to aftermarket oil additives.
Secondarily, a base oil formulation, which is inferior, cannot be converted into a top
quality motor oil simply by pouring in an aftermarket oil additive. What works in one
motor oil may have totally different effects in another brand and/or type of motor oil.
As an engineer with an entire career of experience in the auto industry I have not seen
any documented test data from an OEM auto manufacturers R&D labs that can substantiate the use of aftermarket oil additives.

As a side note, I know of two auto-parts stores within a half-mile of each other. One is a well-known family owned high quality performance type store. The owners of this store use the products they sell and also design and build racing and performance cars and have a full machine shop. They will not sell any type or brand of aftermarket oil additive. Yet, just down the road the owner of a large discount chain walked down the aisle with myself and a business associate where he has at least a dozen different aftermarket oil additives on display and waves his hand as he walks by these additives and says “ this stuff is ineffective, but we sell a lot of it”.
In fact, “in the case of oil additives, there is a considerable volume of evidence against their effectiveness. This evidence comes from well-known and identifiable expert
sources, including independent research laboratories, state universities major engine
manufacturers, and even NASA” (c).
Additionally, as an engineer at one of the major automotive engineering and
manufacturing companies, I have the opportunity to work with some of the worlds most
skilled and knowledgeable engineers from one of the most successful and well-known
national race teams in history. None, and I mean absolutely none, of their cars use an
aftermarket oil additive. They only use synthetic oil, and not just any synthetic oil but the absolute best synthetic oil there is.

In summary, I do not recommend the use of any aftermarket oil additives, regardless of
how convincing their claims are. Instead, I recommend that you take the time to research
the many different brands of premium quality synthetic motor oil on the market.


That book extract is mostly in reference to aftermarket anti wear additives and not flushes. The author is an engineer, so I doubt if it crossed him mind that anyone would add solvents to an engine oil and then drive around. Most of the advertising is currently for anti wear additives rather than flushes.


And so he's an engineer, am I supposed to be impressed? I know plenty of engineers, some good some not so good. You still haven't answered my questions, I'm still waiting.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Skyship you just don't get it do you? Some additives have a purpose in certain instances. Instances where oil alone won't clean up a mess, silence a lifter, slow or stop a leak, or just buy someone some extra time with a beater. Not everyone bought a new car from day one, and pampered it through its entire life. Some people buy someone else's headache and find out when its too late, others buy a nightmare by design. In these cases a top tier synthetic is not going to do much, tear down, pulling valve covers, or dropping an oil pan might be something too difficult for the owner, or too expensive. In these cases an additive has it place. WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO GRASP THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT? Even you were recommending idle flushes, [additives] or flush machines [which require an additive]. What's the problem? Is it you just like to preach to people who really don't care what you say? Or is it too difficult to see someone else's point of view?


Why is it so difficult for you to understand that pre OCI idle flushes or the use of idle flush machines are maintenance procedures and no one regards the chemicals used as snake oils, even if their use can have side effects like oil leaks?

Why do you not understand that the engine oil companies now make far more specialist oils to cover different engine faults? Castrol for example makes 6 different high mileage oils, in addition to special classic cars oils that have high Zinc or Moly contents.
20 years ago there was much more of a case for snake oil use than there is now, because HM oils and thicker multigrades in particular were not available, but times have changed and you can now buy a good oil that has everything needed for an old engine, a classic car or race car.
The other big change with modern full synthetics is that those with high levels of Calcium and Magnesium detergents do a far better job of cleaning an engine than previous oils, so the need for flushes has reduced.
Unfortuntely the modern high tech engines are starting to use different seal compounds, so although this is only effecting GM and Hyundai petrol cars at present it has resulted in two current OEM warnings against the use of any non approved flush.

Modern turbo charger bearings are far too sensitive to debris in the oil or interruption of oil flow to risk the use of a drive around flush, so if you have a turbo and a confirmed sludge or heavy varnish problem then the only fairly safe options are pre OCI idle only flushes or the use of a flush machine if available.
At the end of the day if you can afford it, nothing beats a good manual top and bottom cleaning job.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Skyship you just don't get it do you? Some additives have a purpose in certain instances. Instances where oil alone won't clean up a mess, silence a lifter, slow or stop a leak, or just buy someone some extra time with a beater. Not everyone bought a new car from day one, and pampered it through its entire life. Some people buy someone else's headache and find out when its too late, others buy a nightmare by design. In these cases a top tier synthetic is not going to do much, tear down, pulling valve covers, or dropping an oil pan might be something too difficult for the owner, or too expensive. In these cases an additive has it place. WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO GRASP THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT? Even you were recommending idle flushes, [additives] or flush machines [which require an additive]. What's the problem? Is it you just like to preach to people who really don't care what you say? Or is it too difficult to see someone else's point of view?


Why is it so difficult for you to understand that pre OCI idle flushes or the use of idle flush machines are maintenance procedures and no one regards the chemicals used as snake oils, even if their use can have side effects like oil leaks?

Why do you not understand that the engine oil companies now make far more specialist oils to cover different engine faults? Castrol for example makes 6 different high mileage oils, in addition to special classic cars oils that have high Zinc or Moly contents.
20 years ago there was much more of a case for snake oil use than there is now, because HM oils and thicker multigrades in particular were not available, but times have changed and you can now buy a good oil that has everything needed for an old engine, a classic car or race car.
The other big change with modern full synthetics is that those with high levels of Calcium and Magnesium detergents do a far better job of cleaning an engine than previous oils, so the need for flushes has reduced.
Unfortuntely the modern high tech engines are starting to use different seal compounds, so although this is only effecting GM and Hyundai petrol cars at present it has resulted in two current OEM warning against the use of any non approved flush.

Modern turbo charger bearings are far too sensitive to debris in the oil or interruption of oil flow to risk the use of a drive around flush, so if you have a turbo and a confirmed sludge or heavy varnish problem then the only fairly safe options are pre OCI idle only flushes or the use of a flush machine if available.
At the end of the day if you can afford it, nothing beats a good manual top and bottom cleaning job.


If they weren't part of the original oil formulation then they are additives. Additives according to you are snake oils, making everything you say contradict yourself. Now because you say these things are good we should believe you. WRONG! The knife cuts both ways, there are too many people here with successful results using products you call snake oil. Convince them they didn't have positive results and they ruined their engine, good luck!

Not everyone can afford nor wants a manual top and bottom cleaning, why can't you grasp that? If someone has a problem and all they can afford is an additive, or they are looking to buy some extra time why not use an additive? Especially one with good success for tens of thousands, if not millions of users. Yes that is the best way to deal with sludge no one is disputing that.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
If they weren't part of the original oil formulation then they are additives. Additives according to you are snake oils, making everything you say contradict yourself.


I have no stake in this exchange but what I would like to point out is the following:

There are commercial oil addtives that are added to or blended into oils at the time of manufacture.

Then there are Third Party, Over the Counter (OTC), or Off The Shelf (OTS), or After Market addtives NOT blended into the original oil. This topical area applies to this category.

I don't know why this topical area isn't called,
Quote:
Third Party/ After Market additives
.

 

[skyship]

I can't think anyone would get the term additives mixed up with the phrase snake oils. Additives are included in nearly every modern engine oil, snake oil comes in small cans or bottles normally and is the stuff they warn you about in every owners handbook or maintenance manual.
There are two basic types of snake oil, the cleaners and the friction modifiers, but the worst types of modern snake oil claim to do everything, they claim to function as a fuel additive, an engine block cleaner, friction modifyer and even a stop leak. I'm sure some back street chemist is working on one that can be used in a gearbox or the cooling system, but one thing they all have in common is very cheap contents.