When to use an oil additive.

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This is an interesting part of an article about Zinc additives and I always try to use an oil that has the maximum amount of Zinc permitted by the exhaust system related limits, but I was not aware that too much Zinc causes problems:

Zinc Additives
There are also a number of ZDDP additives available to be used with your customary oil.
Each will claim to have just what your car needs, and only time will tell if they solve the problem or amount to nothing more than modern day snake oil. Without a performance rating system, there is really no way to substantiate the claims of the manufacturers’ marketing departments until your engine lives another 10,000 miles or packs it in. Additionally, there is the danger of getting too much phosphorous if the oil that you are using already has some ZDDP. Based on oil manufacturers test work, high phosphorous concentrations caused increased wear, and in some cases caused attack at the grain boundaries in the metal that resulted in camshaft spalling on the lobes4. So, putting an additive in your oil could be solving the problem or could be adding to the problem.
 
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You ever tryed to break in a high lift flat tappet cam with sm or sn oil? No, well I will tell ya what happens. The cam goes flat! I learned that the hard way. ZDDP adds are not for everyday use, they are for break in. And all your internet searching doesnt change the fact that wrench turners know they work!! put that in pipe and smoke it.
 
Originally Posted By: electrolover
And all your internet searching doesnt change the fact that wrench turners know they work!!


Interesting and very true sometimes. There are people that have book knowledge but no hands on experience. Many times what people who work with their hands have learned by actually getting their hands dirty, doesn't show up in a book, or goes against the book, but it works, and works very well.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: electrolover
And all your internet searching doesnt change the fact that wrench turners know they work!!


Interesting and very true sometimes. There are people that have book knowledge but no hands on experience. Many times what people who work with their hands have learned by actually getting their hands dirty, doesn't show up in a book, or goes against the book, but it works, and works very well.


Why not use a special break in oil that is high in Zinc, otherwise you will have to hope the concentration listed on the bottle is correct. I know some local farmers do use Zinc additives breaking in a recon tractor engine, but they count every cent so don't buy break in oil as it's more expensive that normal oil.
 
This is a good article on mixing oils:

Mixing oils

This is from GM about unapproved fuel additives:

WHAT NOT TO DO: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
Various unproven products to improve vehicle fuel economy have been reported ranging from magnets that align molecules to chemical combustion improvers.
Most products claiming to provide benefits are based on unsubstantiated claims. Those that do present "scientific" results generally either have too little supporting data to be conclusive, have not conducted experiments in a controlled fashion, or cannot be substantiated by anyone else but the product's manufacturer.

The U.S. Federal Trade Commission summarizes results for products tested by the federal government at http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/cons...tos/aut10.shtm. A review of the list shows that the majority did not work, and for those that showed some effect, the benefit was too small to be cost effective.

Harmful Ideas That May Damage Your Vehicle and Increase Emissions
One more recent poor idea to improve fuel economy that should not be attempted is to blend either kerosene or diesel fuel into gasoline. Why? Both kerosene and diesel fuel are distillate fuels meant for use in compression ignition engines, not spark ignition engines. They have very low octane and since they are heavier (higher density) than gasoline, they will cause heavy engine deposits and degradation of engine oil.

Chemicals that are normally used as solvents also should not be used. These include acetone, ketones, and methanol. These solvents can be incompatible with your vehicles rubber or sealing components, and may dissolve the vehicle's paint finish. In the case of methanol, corrosion of metal parts in the fuel system also may occur.

Notice: Never use acetone, ketones, or methanol additives in your vehicle. Some of these solvents may damage or corrode your fuel system. They are also very damaging to the painted surfaces of the vehicle if spilled.
Damage to vehicle components that result from non-approved or aftermarket additives and devices are not covered under the terms of the
New Vehicle Warranty. The only fuel additive currently approved by GM is GM Fuel System Treatment Plus, P/N 88861011 (in Canada,
#88861012).



WARNING FROM GM ABOUT FLUSH ADDITIVES:

GM Technical Service Bulletin 04-06-01-029E April 2010.

From that bulletin:

-------------------------
Models:
2011 and Prior GM Passenger Cars and Trucks (including Saturn)…

Engine Crankcase Flushing

General Motors Corporation does not endorse or recommend engine crankcase flushing for any of its gasoline engines. Analysis of some of the aftermarket materials used for crankcase flushing indicate incompatibility with GM engine components and the potential for damage to some engine seals and bearings.
Damage to engine components resulting from crankcase flushing IS NOT COVERED under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.
-------------------------
 
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: electrolover
And all your internet searching doesnt change the fact that wrench turners know they work!!


Interesting and very true sometimes. There are people that have book knowledge but no hands on experience. Many times what people who work with their hands have learned by actually getting their hands dirty, doesn't show up in a book, or goes against the book, but it works, and works very well.


Yep, some of those folks like you and I depend on their trucks for a living!

One of my biggest profit centers has been low vehicle maintenance and repair costs.
 
A FEW COMMENTS FROM BLACKSTONES ABOUT OIL ADDITIVES THAT INCREASE VISCOSITY
Changes in Viscosity
Adding anything foreign to your oil can change its viscosity. Some types of after-market oil additives cause a quite high viscosity at operating temperature. While an additive might improve bearing wear, it can often cause poorer upper-end wear. We don't recommend any type of after-market additives.

If you decide to use a different viscosity oil than what the manufacturer recommends, you might want to use oil analysis while you are experimenting. Your wear data doesn't lie. People selling oils and additives may be sincere, but they don't have to live with the results. They simply smile a lot on the way to the bank.


OIL BIBLE SECTION ABOUT FLUSHES:
Do I need a flushing oil?
Unless there's something seriously wrong with your engine, like you've filled it with milk or shampoo, you really ought never to need a flushing oil. If you do decide to do an oil flush, there's two ways of doing it. You can either use a dedicated flushing oil, or a flushing additive in your existing oil. Either way it's wise to change the filter first so you have a clean one to collect all the gunk. (This typically means draining the oil or working fast). Once you have a new filter in place, and the flushing oil (or flushing solution) in there, run the engine at a fast idle for about 20 minutes. Finally, drain all this off (and marvel at the [censored] that comes out with it), replace the oil filter again, refill with a good synthetic oil and voila! Clean(er) engine. For the curious amongst you, looking in the oil filter that was attached when you did the flush will be an educational exercise in the sort of debris that used to be in your engine.
Of course, like most things nowadays, there's a condition attached when using flushing oils. In an old engine you really don't want to remove all the deposits. Some of these deposits help seal rings, lifters and even some of the flanges between the heads, covers, pan and the block, where the gaskets are thin. I have heard of engines with over 280,000km that worked fine, but when flushed, failed in a month because the blow-by past the scraper ring (now really clean) contaminated the oil and ruined the rod bearings.
Read more: http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html#ixzz2Ih6urt7d


Comment:
The car bible article is only talking about pre OCI idle only flushes and most have a time limit of 10 or 15, not 20 minutes.
 
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Copy and paste copy and paste.
I bet the copy and paste function on your computer is just about wore out by now.

Your not gonna change anyones mind about using additives skyship. Your just wasting your time. Thats like me trying to convince you to use additives. ....it just wouldnt work.

Let it go dude. And quit calling people names like addaholics.
 
ANOTHER ARTICLE ON CHLORINATED PARAFFINS:
John Rowland, Derby
[John is an industrial chemist with vast experience in the field of lubricants.
He wrote this item more than a year ago, but somehow it buried itself
beneath a layer of e-mails and went unnoticed. Its time has now come.]

Dave Pittuck came across the publicity for a lubricant additive named Bitron, for which some wonderful claims were being made, and he asked me whether it was likely to of benefit to Morgan owners. I told him not to touch it with a bargepole. At about the same time I was contacted by a French acquaintance who had put the additive Mecacyl in the gearbox of his Citroen tintop and subsequently discovered a great deal of internal corrosion.
Both these products are based on chemicals known as chlorinated paraffins. We oil industry types knew all about chlorinated paraffins seventy years ago, and so did the motor industry. Bitron—in common with many other ‘miracle’ additives—is based upon this1930s technology. Chlorinated paraffins have powerful anti-seize properties, so they were used in the early ‘hypoid’ axle oils until less corrosive compounds were synthesised. In the laboratory they give spectacular results in seizure-test machines which look very impressive, but they now only feature in the cutting oils used for the heavy machining of tough steels; there are no automotive applications for them. In particular, they severely corrode copper-based alloys. Those early hypoid gear lubricants which contained chlorinated paraffins could only be used on totally copper-free devices, hence warnings about using them on the bronze wormwheels of Morgans. Chlorinated compounds can also attack iron and steel at high temperatures. (Easily reached around piston rings, for example.)
As EP (extreme pressure) anti-seize agents their mechanism of action is as follows: When two steel surfaces (such as gear teeth) come into contact at high pressure, tiny areas literally weld themselves together. The welded contacts are ripped off the teeth as they move apart;the common name for this process is ‘wear’! Chlorinated compounds decompose due to high temperatures at points of high-pressure contact, generating layers of soft ferric chloride, which prevent welding. The trouble is that ferric chloride in the presence of even tiny amounts of moisture breaks down to produce hydrochloric acid, which eats into the steel to produce more ferric chloride, which . . . etc etc! The stuff attacks copper alloys at a ferocious rate, and the resulting copper salts act as oxidation catalysts which accelerate oil breakdown. Two vicious circles foe the price of one! (Note that the electronics industry uses ferric chloride solution to dissolve copper from printed circuits. Metallurgists use it to etch stainless steel.)
Since around 1960, therefore, the EP agents in gear oils have been safe and non-corrosive sulphur/phosphorus compounds. Chlorinated paraffins have never been used by any responsible manufacturer in engine oils.
The chlorinated paraffins used in industrial cutting oils are fairly stable, and they are always used with an anti-corrosion additive, but they are never used to cut copper alloys, and they are only necessary for difficult jobs. The Health and Safety warnings we have to issue are rather severe, and there are moves to get rid of these compounds altogether. Oddly enough, the correct warnings never appear on ‘magic additives’, and the distributors, when asked if their products contain chlorinated compounds, say ‘no’ or ‘eh?’. One simple way to find out is to pour a drop into water; if is sinks, it’s chlorinated. (Some of the hydrogen atoms in paraffin are replaced by heavy chlorine atoms, so the density almost doubles.) This doesn’t always work if the stuff is diluted with solvents, so try this one: (Perfectly safe for Morgan drivers, skilled in all dark arts, but watch out if you are a muggle.) Heat a bit of thick, clean copper wire to red heat in a gas flame. Contrary to popular belief, the flame will not turn green! Dip it in the suspect fluid, then heat it up again. If chlorine is present, the flame will turn green, due to the formation of copper chloride. (Much cheaper than our infra-red spectrophotometer!)
Incidentally, chlorinated paraffins are also cheap—around £1 per kg in bulk—which means that the purveyors of miracle lubricants are selling the stuff at a mark-up of at least 1000%. The marketers often don’t know what is in the bottle! They are at the bottom of a ‘pyramid’ sales scam, and they can only repeat the nonsense they have been told. Their publicity implies ‘secret’ knowledge that the bona fide lubricants industry is unaware of. Well! What a nerve!
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Oh sunkship. Still trying to prove himself right.
I'm still waiting for that data so you can PROVE engine last longer with thicker oil.


The way he justn copies and pastes stuff without any actual reply reminds me of Frank.

Is it possible Frank is on a trolling mission to some how get more buisness?
 
Originally Posted By: electrolover
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Oh sunkship. Still trying to prove himself right.
I'm still waiting for that data so you can PROVE engine last longer with thicker oil.


The way he justn copies and pastes stuff without any actual reply reminds me of Frank.

Is it possible Frank is on a trolling mission to some how get more buisness?


Frank wasn't this dense. At least he knew no one cared,or was listening. This guy actually believes he's helping,when in reality we are just looking for something to rip on him for. And he certainly gives us lots of options for ripping
 
Skyship would not be happy unless everybody stopped using oil supplements (including engine flushes and drive around cleaners) and unless the oil companies all got together and came up with some additive package they could all agree upon would not cause sludge. That additive package agreed upon by committee (and we all know the results of committee decisions) would obviously not include moly, since according to insurance and warranty investigator Skyship, moly has been found to cause sludge in the new high tech synthetic oils under development. Obviously insurance claims and warranty claims investigators have full access to and communications with the chemists developing new motor oils.

I think if all of this came to pass Skyship would maybe be happy.
 
Mystic, you have been around here a long time. Back in the day folks would run a dino oil with moly and go 7500+ sometimes....ever hear of someone getting sludged up from it?
 
I have never heard of a case where moly caused an engine failure. Now I think there are different quality moly oil supplements. And there is a big difference between Pennzoil having moly in chemical form in a motor oil and just some sort of oil supplement that contains moly in some sort of oil carrier.

Maybe Skyship does not realize that when a company like Pennzoil puts moly into an engine oil it is a chemical additive in a chemical form. The moly is not just going to rain out of the oil when the engine is not running.

And few of us here, if any, know anything about what is being used as additives in new, high tech motor oils. Maybe companies will use moly. But apparently they were in the process of removing moly anyway because of cost or because they found more effective additives. In UOAs here there has been some indication that moly is being reduced or even eliminated in some motor oils. That does not mean that there was a sludge problem. Companies for whatever reason were turning to other additives. They may have found something that is cheaper than moly but just as effective or even more so. If so there would be no point in continuing to use moly. But I don't think Skyship realizes things like this.
 
No matter what Skyship says I still believe and I will continue to believe that there is a need for some sort of safe, effective cleaner, engine flush or drive around cleaner, that can clean engines that have high miles and long time of operation, or owner neglect. It seems to me that even Skyship should want something like that. It would be less costly than removing parts and physically cleaning the insides of an engine. Since Skyship is an investigator for insurance and warranty claims it seems to me he should be in favor of anything that reduces costs and therefore insurance and warranty claims costs.

My guess is that companies like Amsoil, a name brand company, should have such safe and effective cleaners.

And no matter what Skyship says I have had good results with some oil supplements, such as the Lubegard Biotech Engine Oil Supplement and Schaeffer's oil supplement. My engine was not destroyed when I used those oil supplements. I think most oil supplements are pure junk but I don't believe all are junk.
 
Its weird that some oils are dropping moly levels and others are raising it. CS is down on moly in the sn version, but PYB has high moly in SN, where they didnt use it at all in the past.
 
And the fact that moly is going up in some oils but going down in others is a good indication that independent teams of chemists are doing research and they have by no means abandoned moly. I think it is a good thing that there is competition and not some sort of development of chemical additives for motor oils by some sort of committee. Better for us for people to compete and try different chemical additives.

I personally like for there to be moly in chemical form in motor oils. But if some team of chemists found something that worked much better and cost less that would be great. What is important are the results and not what additives are used.

Maybe Skyship has some sort of personal experience with a low quality moly containing oil supplement. But just because there may have been some sort of poor quality moly containing oil supplement does not mean that moly in the correct chemical form will not work in a high quality motor oil. In a poor quality oil supplement the moly might rain out of the carrier oil whenever the engine is shut off. And that might cause problems like sludge or clogging of oil lines.

There is a big difference between some professional company like Pennzoil developing a motor oil and the Synlube guy developing what is supposed to be (according to him) a superior motor oil.

Another thing I think Skyship does not realize is that some major, name brand companies are developing engine flushes and oil supplements. Somehow I seriously doubt that Amsoil has not developed quality engine flushes. And even Valvoline had an engine oil supplement for a while. It was probably a quality product.
 
Blanket statements are dangerous. If I say that 100% of all high school seniors are excellent students that is obviously not correct. But if I did some research and found out that a certain percentage of high school students were excellent students that would be a more accurate statement.

The same thing with oil supplements. Maybe 90% of all oil supplements are worthless junk. But there may be that 10% of oil supplements that have value.

I can see where an investigator for insurance and warranty claims would want for no oil supplements or cleaners of any sort to be used in new car and truck engines. The car manufacturers, car dealerships, and the warranty claim investigators want for the car or truck or van or SUV to make it through the warranty period. With reasonable OCI oil changes and other necessary maintenance any well built car or truck should make it through the warranty period. No engine flushes, cleaners, or oil supplements needed.

It is interesting to me however that whenever I bought a new car the CAR DEALERSHIPS were always trying to sell various supplements to new car owners, including oil supplements! Maybe Skyship needs to investigate that, since he is so determined to eliminate all oil supplements and engine cleaners. Now it has been a while since I bought a new car-2004. But that dealership was promoting BG products, including the BG oil supplement.

I always tried to use quality oil supplements and cleaners. My current car has 106,000 miles on it. I have not destroyed an engine yet with an oil supplement. I have used mostly quality motor oil but I did use a few oil supplements and I have used a nonsolvent engine flush. The engine still runs. It runs very good with no apparent oil consumption. So I guess I did something right.
 
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