When to use an oil additive.

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: jonny-b



You also didn't respond to KeMBro2012, and the fact that he had positive results from using MMO. Results that he will never get when using oil alone. Why?


The answer is simple, Skyship would have been all over it with a few other members if KeMBro2012 had problems, or no results at all. Since he had positive results the nay sayers had two options. 1. The smart option, say nothing. 2. Call it a fluke and risk looking stupid. I have a feeling he decided on 1. Kudos to him if he did. Actually there is a third choice but that would be a bitter pill to swallow and highly unlikely, admit it worked. LOL Don't hold your breath though. LOL

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
Originally Posted By: FoxS
But Trav and demarpant, with their incredibly stubborn egos, will just refuse to go away. This thread will just go on and in. skyship the Relentless vs Trav and demarpant the Stubborn Duo.


Aww, I'll try harder, since I apparently haven't been noticed yet.

Me, too. Not offended, though, because among all the PM's in my box was one in particular that explained the story on this foXs character.

This place is always good for a chuckle.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: jonny-b

Castrol, Mobil and Shell do know something about old or faulty engines and if they thought a drive around scourer was a good idea they would make one.


It's no doubt that the above-mentioned oil-companies know something, but don't forget that the thing they know most about, is how to sell more oil and how to NOT over-engineer an oil so that it is better than expected!
This is why they won't use the absolute best additives available(also something to do with cost).

It seem like you believe that most oil-companies are Mother Theresa, Skyship. Why?

You also didn't respond to KeMBro2012, and the fact that he had positive results from using MMO. Results that he will never get when using oil alone. Why? [/quote]

This is the funny part of the post above:

the thing they know most about, is how to sell more oil and how to NOT over-engineer an oil so that it is better than expected!
The major brands are in a constant fight to make the best possible oils and get as many manufacturer approvals as possible, they spend big bucks on R&D and if they find a good additive they will use it even if it makes the oil expensive, because contracts with the top players like Porsche, BMW, Merc and Volvo are worth chasing. Those top companies don't care much about the cost, they just want high performance long life oils to allow them to offer a long warranty and longer OCI's. At present the design teams are selecting the oils not the bean counters, although Volvo in the US did forget to include a full range of oils in their US handbook.
The contents of a can of most snake oils cost the manufacturer about 20 cents and regardless of what their advertising states the R&D cost was peanuts as many are copies of old formulas used by the race folks or farmers and others were developed by students who could not get a job with a major oil company.
I don't answer every reply and forums are full of the "I used it and it worked" type accounts. If you pour a litre of kerosene into a sludged engine it will dissolve the sludge and if you keep the revs and OCI short it might not damage the main block, but it is a silly idea and very risky, so I don't tell tales about risky quick fixes.

 

[demarpaint]

^^Lets forget about your so called Snake Oils for a moment. Ponder this: Oil is formulated to a price point to capture a larger share of the market. Why do you think companies like Amsoil make OE, XL, and Signature Series? Do you honestly believe that each grade of oil is the very best that can be made? If so why three choices in this example? Castrol, Pennzoil, and Mobil do the same thing. If cost wasn't a factor do you think oil could be made better? I do.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
^^Lets forget about your so called Snake Oils for a moment. Ponder this: Oil is formulated to a price point to capture a larger share of the market. Why do you think companies like Amsoil make OE, XL, and Signature Series? Do you honestly believe that each grade of oil is the very best that can be made? If so why three choices in this example? Castrol, Pennzoil, and Mobil do the same thing. If cost wasn't a factor do you think oil could be made better? I do.


Yes if you disregard the limit of 100 Euros per 5 ltrs set by Merc it is possible to make an oil with slightly better anti wear additives. Nasa uses one and it has fine Gold dust in it, but no one is selling it as an additive cos it's kind of expensive.
Every major brand oil company makes both cheap and expensive oils, you can sometimes improve on their bottom of the range products by using a can of high quality snake oil, but why do that because there is always a risk of an interaction and the cost of an expensive can of snake oil is less than the difference between a cheap conventional and a full synthetic and you know exactly what you will get from an oil, so there is no need to conduct what will always be a chemistry experiment.

 

[demarpaint]

Keep in mind I mentioned above to forget about Snake Oil for the moment, you haven't. Even the very best of oil can be made better. All you have to do is take money out of the equation. Also keep in mind a Lubricant can't do everything, there are trade off's even with the very best of oils. But you already knew that, didn't you?

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: skunkship
so I don't tell tales about risky quick fixes.

That maybe true, you just tell real tall tales about everything else.

Originally Posted By: skunkship
Nasa uses one and it has fine Gold dust in it, but no one is selling it as an additive cos it's kind of expensive.

Now we have gold dust oil.

Proof? Google only turned up this thread.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
^^Lets forget about your so called Snake Oils for a moment. Ponder this: Oil is formulated to a price point to capture a larger share of the market. Why do you think companies like Amsoil make OE, XL, and Signature Series? Do you honestly believe that each grade of oil is the very best that can be made? If so why three choices in this example? Castrol, Pennzoil, and Mobil do the same thing. If cost wasn't a factor do you think oil could be made better? I do.


Yes if you disregard the limit of 100 Euros per 5 ltrs set by Merc it is possible to make an oil with slightly better anti wear additives. Nasa uses one and it has fine Gold dust in it, but no one is selling it as an additive cos it's kind of expensive.
Every major brand oil company makes both cheap and expensive oils, you can sometimes improve on their bottom of the range products by using a can of high quality snake oil, but why do that because there is always a risk of an interaction and the cost of an expensive can of snake oil is less than the difference between a cheap conventional and a full synthetic and you know exactly what you will get from an oil, so there is no need to conduct what will always be a chemistry experiment.


Third party additives are formulated to a price point too. And without the benefits of extensive R&D. Or bothering to meet API or mfg specs.

 

[skyship]

Gold dust can be milled down to mico fine particle size to stop the engineers stealing used oil filters, it then plates pitting and other defects in bearings in a more efficient manner than Moly or Zinc, BUT is one very effective anti corrosive. It does not work in rings due to higher temperatures.
It is being tested as an additive for long life hydraulic fluid by the Germans due to the fact it works at a lower concentration than Titanium and is more Greenpeace friendly than Lead. I will ask about the price, although Castrol send it in an armoured security van at present, but the Brits are worried about intellectual propert rights after their Titanium mix got stolen.

Oops I just found a Gold snake oil:
Gold additive

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
^^Lets forget about your so called Snake Oils for a moment. Ponder this: Oil is formulated to a price point to capture a larger share of the market. Why do you think companies like Amsoil make OE, XL, and Signature Series? Do you honestly believe that each grade of oil is the very best that can be made? If so why three choices in this example? Castrol, Pennzoil, and Mobil do the same thing. If cost wasn't a factor do you think oil could be made better? I do.


Yes if you disregard the limit of 100 Euros per 5 ltrs set by Merc it is possible to make an oil with slightly better anti wear additives. Nasa uses one and it has fine Gold dust in it, but no one is selling it as an additive cos it's kind of expensive.
Every major brand oil company makes both cheap and expensive oils, you can sometimes improve on their bottom of the range products by using a can of high quality snake oil, but why do that because there is always a risk of an interaction and the cost of an expensive can of snake oil is less than the difference between a cheap conventional and a full synthetic and you know exactly what you will get from an oil, so there is no need to conduct what will always be a chemistry experiment.


Third party additives are formulated to a price point too. And without the benefits of extensive R&D. Or bothering to meet API or mfg specs.


True and many have proven themselves to be useful, as many of us have posted about time and time again here. Some members just flat out refuse to accept it though. Their loss.

 

[skyship]

You should all try the new X Gold snake oil, this is from their high tech web site:

Benefits of X-Gold ZF Engine Oil Boosters

Suitable for use in all vehicles
No modification required - Just pour into Engine Oil
Reduces friction co-efficient to near zero
Minimizes wear and tear
Increases Brake Horse Power (bhp) by 12.8 – refer to Dyno Race Test Results
Improves fuel efficiency by up to 25% - refer to Eco-Drive Events
Reduces operating temperature
Improves overall engine performance
Seamless transition during accelerations and decelerations
Reduces engine noise and vibrations
Protects engine during cold start
Compatible with all engine oils
Soluble in all engine oils
Re-condition and prolong existing engine oil life by up to 10,000km (from first use)
Savings on lesser maintenance
Anti-corrosion and non-hazardous
Will not void Manufacturers’ warranty



(PS: The owner worked for ZF hence the hint in the title, but he got fired for stealing Gold powder and using Graphite)

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
You should all try the new X Gold snake oil, this is from their high tech web site:

Benefits of X-Gold ZF Engine Oil Boosters

Suitable for use in all vehicles
No modification required - Just pour into Engine Oil
Reduces friction co-efficient to near zero
Minimizes wear and tear
Increases Brake Horse Power (bhp) by 12.8 – refer to Dyno Race Test Results
Improves fuel efficiency by up to 25% - refer to Eco-Drive Events
Reduces operating temperature
Improves overall engine performance
Seamless transition during accelerations and decelerations
Reduces engine noise and vibrations
Protects engine during cold start
Compatible with all engine oils
Soluble in all engine oils
Re-condition and prolong existing engine oil life by up to 10,000km (from first use)
Savings on lesser maintenance
Anti-corrosion and non-hazardous
Will not void Manufacturers’ warranty



(PS: The owner worked for ZF hence the hint in the title, but he got fired for stealing Gold powder and using Graphite)


Why would I try it? I have my four fav's already, tried and true with a large following.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: skunkship
Oops I just found a Gold snake oil:

What is the problem? You posted...
Originally Posted By: skunkship
Nasa uses one and it has fine Gold dust in it

So what if there is a gold additive. You said NASA uses oil with gold dust and i asked you to show some proof a link, anything that says NASA used this gold dust oil.

 

[TuBon_gRips]

Originally Posted By: skyship
FIRST PART:
All those excellent oils, developed by professional lubrication engineers, are designed to run in *healthy* engines. When you have an unhealthy engine, an additive designed to target that engine's specific issue *will* do better than the oil alone.

So why do Castrol produce 6 different HM oils that have high detergent, high Zinc, seal conditioners and stop leak additive levels in a well designed balanced add pack??
Castrol, Mobil and Shell do know something about old or faulty engines and if they thought a drive around scourer was a good idea they would make one.


They produce them because, as we both agree, there is a market for them. However, I've never seen the full line available anywhere (and you mention some I've just never seen) in the US, having lived on both coasts, up north, down south, and in the middle. Since I can't get Castrol's product (nor would I run Castrol, anyway), I have to add what's lacking to an otherwise decent oil, to tailor it to my engine.

In my case, it was a healthy (e.g. not in need of a specialized oil) but dirty (e.g. in need of a good cleaning oil) engine. After 16oz of PU had burned off over the 2000 miles in which it did no cleaning whatsoever, I topped it off with MMO (your so-hated Moo oil) and within 750 miles my oil burning (you'll remember, if you actually read my posts, that we're talking about an 8th gen Corolla with a 1ZZ-FE, they burn when they're dirty) was down to "because I redline it all the time" levels and the oil was severely darkened, a sign that some cleaning had actually happened.

This is my third request for your comment on that. Why won't you acknowledge it, even if just to tell me I'm wrong?

 

[TuBon_gRips]

I've got a sincere question for Skyship. Hopefully he will answer it directly and without any rhetoric. Several questions, actually...

Have you considered the possibility that some additives that oil companies have used for decades (for example, ZDDP) can not exist in modern oils in any meaningful amount if those oils want that ever-important API seal on their bottles? Have you further considered that some engines run better with those older additives, since that is what they were designed to run on? Have you considered your own thoughts (as posted here) about altering the formula of the oil a vehicle was designed to run on, in this case removing from it and replacing what was removed with something different, rather than adding to it? If so, have you, then, considered that a bottle of ZDDP might not be a bad thing to add to a modern oil in an engine designed ti run on a high0zinc oil?

ZDDP here is just one example, to avoid confusing the issue. In light of this, I ask that you address my questions in spirit, rather than simply attacking ZDDP additives, as that is not the point of my questions.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
I've got a sincere question for Skyship. Hopefully he will answer it directly and without any rhetoric. Several questions, actually...

Have you considered the possibility that some additives that oil companies have used for decades (for example, ZDDP) can not exist in modern oils in any meaningful amount if those oils want that ever-important API seal on their bottles? Have you further considered that some engines run better with those older additives, since that is what they were designed to run on? Have you considered your own thoughts (as posted here) about altering the formula of the oil a vehicle was designed to run on, in this case removing from it and replacing what was removed with something different, rather than adding to it? If so, have you, then, considered that a bottle of ZDDP might not be a bad thing to add to a modern oil in an engine designed ti run on a high0zinc oil?

ZDDP here is just one example, to avoid confusing the issue. In light of this, I ask that you address my questions in spirit, rather than simply attacking ZDDP additives, as that is not the point of my questions.


I am a big fan of Zinc because my Volvo has to suffer a lot of cold starts, it's true that the reductions in Zinc have had consequences for some engine types, VW TDI's in particular. Alas most folks don't want to buy a new exhaust system as a pre Cat, Cat, DPF and EGR will cost you almost as much as a reco head job for the engine, so we are stuck with the Zinc limits according to each exhaust system. Titanium does seem to make up for some of the reduced Zinc content, but it's not available as an additive as far as I am aware. If you have a classic or race car that needs a high Zinc oil there a quite a number available.
You need to read up more on API labels as they just followed what the manufacturers requested in Zinc level limits as I am aware. API limits are less restrictive in oil performance terms than the ACEA ones, so I don't pay much attention to them.
Oddly enough I do know one chap doing some serious testing of different anti wear additives for Castrol and he uses straight 30 grade oil that has no additives, that way they can see the effect of each one. Castrol do a lot of bench testing but in the end some chap has to go and drive around with each new oil for a final approval.

 

[Mystic]

Somehow Skyship I can't see Castrol hiring some 'chap' to drive around and test their additives one by one in a straight 30 weight oil with no additives except for the test additive. I think Castrol probably has better testing facilities than Synlube. A lot of money is spent developing new motor oil formulations. The image of the good old chap driving down the street testing one additive at a time in a 30 weight oil somehow does not make the grade for me.

But keep coming up with funny new stuff Skyship. One of the best was when you thought Seafoam was salt water! You really know a lot about oil supplements don't you? About as much as what you know about motor oil testing.

I am sure Pennzoil, Exxon/Mobil, Valvoline, etc., all hire some good oil chap to drive down the road with a straight 30 weight oil and test each additive one at a time.

 

[skyship]

Umm, tommorrow I am off in a bus testing fluid additives for several hours in a high tech transmission system. I'm only a guest of the geeks that monitor what the box is doing, but the car folks do something very similar with cars, although some use a race track that costs money, the Germans often just use their own autobahn. Nothing beats a real world test and oddly enough using a serious test rig is more expensive for some of the more complex tests, due to the time spent writing the software. The geeks also get paid far more than the two drivers that run a 20 hour test, which allows a Berlin and back trip.

 

[Mystic]

Let me see Skyship, you are an investigator for insurance and warranty claims, an engineer, and now the chaps that develop new motor oil and transmission fluids have you come along for a ride in a bus while they test new transmission additives for new technology tranmission equipment.

Sometimes when I read your posts Skyship I have this mental image of a young boy, or a young girl, maybe in England.

 

[Mystic]

Your gold dust oil might even inspire the Synlube guy to new heights. He could really charge a lot for that oil! And maybe put pyrite in it instead of the gold!

We can test that gold dust in oil very cheaply-just hire an old chap to drive down the road with straight 30 weight oil and no additives except for the gold dust. Then we will know exactly what effect the gold dust has-assuming the engine lives long enough with just a straight 30 weight oil. Might get a little sludgy, and no engine cleaners allowed of course!

Maybe that was what was in that runaway turbo car. Instead of a drive around engine cleaner maybe there was gold dust in the oil. No wonder they never found that runaway turbo car.