When to use an oil additive.

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Originally Posted By: skyship

Idle flushes are just temporary additives rather than permanent ones and I don't regard any chemical used during maintenance as a snake oil.


As you can probably tell not many of us care what you regard as temporary, permanent, or anything else for that matter. You try and come across as some self proclaimed Anti-Oil Additive authority, and the people replying to you in this thread aren't buying into it.

BTW you're contradicting yourself again, you said "I don't regard any chemical used during maintenance as a snake oil". Well if someone adds Kreen or MMO to clean up their engine, that's maintenance isn't it? The same maintenance as one of your fast idle flushes. Only these clean things a bit slower, have a very large following, and tons of satisfied users too.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: skyship

Idle flushes are just temporary additives rather than permanent ones and I don't regard any chemical used during maintenance as a snake oil.


As you can probably tell not many of us care what you regard as temporary, permanent, or anything else for that matter. You try and come across as some self proclaimed Anti-Oil Additive authority, and the people replying to you in this thread aren't buying into it.

BTW you're contradicting yourself again, you said "I don't regard any chemical used during maintenance as a snake oil". Well if someone adds Kreen or MMO to clean up their engine, that's maintenance isn't it? The same maintenance as one of your fast idle flushes. Only these clean things a bit slower, have a very large following, and tons of satisfied users too.


Smoking is an activity that has a large following and tons of satisfied users, but that does not make it a healthy activity to recommend to others. Drive around snake oil use is very similar.
 
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: skyship

Idle flushes are just temporary additives rather than permanent ones and I don't regard any chemical used during maintenance as a snake oil.


As you can probably tell not many of us care what you regard as temporary, permanent, or anything else for that matter. You try and come across as some self proclaimed Anti-Oil Additive authority, and the people replying to you in this thread aren't buying into it.

BTW you're contradicting yourself again, you said "I don't regard any chemical used during maintenance as a snake oil". Well if someone adds Kreen or MMO to clean up their engine, that's maintenance isn't it? The same maintenance as one of your fast idle flushes. Only these clean things a bit slower, have a very large following, and tons of satisfied users too.


Smoking is an activity that has a large following and tons of satisfied users, but that does not make it a healthy activity to recommend to others. Drive around snake oil use is very similar.


In your opinion, in mine your comparison makes no sense at all.
 
Originally Posted By: skyship
Just a typical snake oil users story, you need to do detailed UOA comparisons with cross checks to a normal oil use to show any effect. The engines might have lasted longer with just normal oil.
The VOA of the Moly supplement shows it has no Calcium or Zinc, so as soon as you add it to a good oil it dilutes the concentration of those two important additives, even before you start to consider how the snake oil will effect the existing oils add pack.
The snake oil companies themselves try to find labs that would publish data to support their use, but they have failed to publish anything useful so far.


My wallet is my data point. My fuel bills compared to before and after are also my data point. A wrench in my hand and seeing with my own eyes is another data point.
I live and work in the real world. Ppm dont mean a lick of nothing to me. What matters is if its running and pumping air so my men can shoot nails.
You can stay living in your fantasy world,where all oils are perfect and all engines meticulously maintained but I'm gonna keep on,keeping on doing what I'm doing because over the long haul it saves me money.
You cannot fathom life away from your screen nor real social interaction where you have to look someone in the eye.
I have nothing to gain by sharing my many personal experiences using this particular product,you however have none. And add nothing to a conversation. You think your something special,the rest of us know you aren't. Your story changes daily.
First you say all the majors best oils have no moly. Then I prove you wrong. Then you talk lawsuits with phoney stories to prove your point,only to back pedal when Trav calls you on it.
You are a phoney,a liar,and truly very sad. You must be very lonely. Your god complex has gotten old,your lies,and useless opinion tired. If you haven't noticed every time you post someone is ripping on you. I for one find it amusing that you've managed to irritate and get on an entire forums bad side.
But please keep posting. The entertainment value is better than tv
Back to toggling your posts.
 
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Seems like skyship has a problem with mmo users and smokers. Im both and thems fightin words!

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Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: skyship
Just a typical snake oil users story, you need to do detailed UOA comparisons with cross checks to a normal oil use to show any effect. The engines might have lasted longer with just normal oil.
The VOA of the Moly supplement shows it has no Calcium or Zinc, so as soon as you add it to a good oil it dilutes the concentration of those two important additives, even before you start to consider how the snake oil will effect the existing oils add pack.
The snake oil companies themselves try to find labs that would publish data to support their use, but they have failed to publish anything useful so far.


My wallet is my data point. My fuel bills compared to before and after are also my data point. A wrench in my hand and seeing with my own eyes is another data point.
I live and work in the real world. Ppm dont mean a lick of nothing to me. What matters is if its running and pumping air so my men can shoot nails.
You can stay living in your fantasy world,where all oils are perfect and all engines meticulously maintained but I'm gonna keep on,keeping on doing what I'm doing because over the long haul it saves me money.
You cannot fathom life away from your screen nor real social interaction where you have to look someone in the eye.
I have nothing to gain by sharing my many personal experiences using this particular product,you however have none. And add nothing to a conversation. You think your something special,the rest of us know you aren't. Your story changes daily.
First you say all the majors best oils have no moly. Then I prove you wrong. Then you talk lawsuits with phoney stories to prove your point,only to back pedal when Trav calls you on it.
You are a phoney,a liar,and truly very sad. You must be very lonely. Your god complex has gotten old,your lies,and useless opinion tired. If you haven't noticed every time you post someone is ripping on you. I for one find it amusing that you've managed to irritate and get on an entire forums bad side.
But please keep posting. The entertainment value is better than tv
Back to toggling your posts.


I enjoyed that!
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Your comments apply to a few other members I can think of too. One is due to chime in shortly. LOL
 
Bob is the oil guy is a very informative site with alot of good people and good information,this is why i joined.I have found it very educational.Personal experiences,stats,uoa,s are all good in my opinion.There are a few that i feel like to come on and start bullying people or simply starts fights which i feel is very sad.It breaks my heart to see grown men come on and gang up on someone.This is,nt a personal playground where you can vent out all you underlaying personal problems while embarrassing yourselves.Some members are not as knowledgable as others,and we need to be patient with them.Life is too short,try and get along.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Didnt you post this in another thread? Whats the problem? For cripes sake man get a pair you sound like some sort of old lady.


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Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Demarpaint
MaxLife ATF- my Century loves it!

Love that sig line Frank.
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Does it also work well in Astro Vans?
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I don't know, but if I had one I'd sure try it. The Buick is running great!!!!!!!
 
Originally Posted By: skyship
The VOA of the Moly supplement shows it has no Calcium or Zinc, so as soon as you add it to a good oil it dilutes the concentration of those two important additives, even before you start to consider how the snake oil will effect the existing oils add pack.

Following the 3-5% treat rate prescribed in the instructions will result in insignificant dilution of Zinc and Calcium (I estimate a dilution rate of 3-5% when I run the numbers in my head). If you're concerned about poor interaction with the add pack, then buy a better oil.
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This is interesting if you are thinking of using a can of Moly snake oil and is one of the reasons some HDEO's like Shell Rotella 15/40, Mobil Delvac 1 and Amsoil 15/40 don't contain any Moly:
Cummins Engine Oil Recommendations, Bulletin No. 3810340-02 .
On page 7 it has a section on FRICTION MODIFIERS states:
"There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage"........
Associated comment:
From years working with engine test programs to approve engine oil formulations for API licensing, we can tell you that NO engine oil containing Molybdenum additives has been certified by the full range of engine tests necessary to gain API approval.
Molybdenum compounds in motor oils can degrade and cause bearing corrosion and is particularly aggressive towards copper. In almost all cases, any engine oil formula having "moly" will also contain a Copper Deactivator which will protect bearings from the moly compounds. The only problem, the copper deactivator decomposes at relatively low temperatures and looses it's potency after a few thousand miles.


Some more expensive versions of Moly have been developed for use with HC synthetics in particular, but cheaper oils or cans of snake oil still use the cheaper type of Moly. Liqui Moly, Castrol, Shell and Mobil do not use Moly in some of the best fully synthetics oils, although it is still used in most HC synthetics and other cheaper oils.
Excessive amounts of Moly also interefere with the detergents in some full synthetic oils and can cause sludge formation with longish OCI's. Oil companies don't test snake oils for adverse reactions and I don't think their own manufacturers even have the facilities or funding to do.
 
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Originally Posted By: skyship
This is interesting if you are thinking of using a can of Moly snake oil and is one of the reasons some HDEO's like Shell Rotella 15/40, Mobil Delvac 1 and Amsoil 15/40 don't contain any Moly:
Cummins Engine Oil Recommendations, Bulletin No. 3810340-02 .
On page 7 it has a section on FRICTION MODIFIERS states:
"There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage"........
Associated comment:
From years working with engine test programs to approve engine oil formulations for API licensing, we can tell you that NO engine oil containing Molybdenum additives has been certified by the full range of engine tests necessary to gain API approval.
Molybdenum compounds in motor oils can degrade and cause bearing corrosion and is particularly aggressive towards copper. In almost all cases, any engine oil formula having "moly" will also contain a Copper Deactivator which will protect bearings from the moly compounds. The only problem, the copper deactivator decomposes at relatively low temperatures and looses it's potency after a few thousand miles.


Some more expensive versions of Moly have been developed for use with HC synthetics in particular, but cheaper oils or cans of snake oil still use the cheaper type of Moly. Liqui Moly, Castrol, Shell and Mobil do not use Moly in some of the best fully synthetics oils, although it is still used in most HC synthetics and other cheaper oils.


Do you ever quit. You didn't even know rotella never had moly now you think its some ball you can run with. No one cares what you say.
Cummins has updated that by the way to allow oils containing Moly. The update came in around the same time amsoil started putting it in their oil.
Your a bit late to the party. Keep trying

I like how you replaced amsoil and have shell now instead
You make me laugh
 
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That warning still applies to snake oil Moly and Amsoil 15/40 does not contain Moly unless they just changed it. It would be good to get replies from the non addaholics.
This is from another good article about the inclusion of Chlorine in some snake oils:

Chlorine Additives Can Cause Corrosion

Consumers frequently encounter “engine treatment” products containing chlorinated additives, often demonstrated with oilless engines or bench tests such as bearing testers. Chlorine is used in this type of additive because chlorine reacts with the metal substrate to form a reactive species, or an oxide, which becomes a friction barrier and produces dramatic demonstrations on bench tests. However, the by-product of oxidated chlorine causes problems in both engines and the environment. Chlorine is
extremely reactive, making it corrosive to engine metals and interactive with many motor oil components. And while these demonstrations attract attention, they do not represent “real world” engine operating conditions where chlorine’s long-term corrosive attack can outweigh any short-term benefits.

Quick reactivity

Chlorinated additives react quickly with metal surfaces due to high electron negativity. Therefore, chlorinated additives are sometimes used in industrial cutting fluids designed to meet the extreme pressure requirement of metal machining. Metal machining involves a “one pass” metal shearing operation in an open system with constant flushing, conditions not conducive to corrosive attack.

Hydrochloric acid corrosion

By contrast, the internal combustion engine involves a closed system with conditions described by Mr.
Maurice LePera, who served as Associate Director for Fuels and Lubricants at the U.S. Army’s Tank-
Automotive Research Development and Engineering Center, in the August, 1998, Lubes-n-Greases article “Chlorine & Engine Oils: A Good Mix?”:

“Chlorinated additives are not used in modern, fully formulated automotive engine oils. The environment within an internal combustion engine consists of high temperatures,combustion and blow-by gases, moisture, acid and oxidation precursors, wear debris, unburned fuel, etc. The combination of these ingredients when combined with the catalytic effects of metallic surfaces and trace soluble metals such as copper will cause the chlorine to hydrolyze, forming hydrochloric acid and other associated reaction products. Once generated, these acidic reaction products can cause serious internal engine corrosion problems, especially on ferrous and aluminum alloys.”

Specs prohibit chlorine

Certain chlorinated additive manufacturers claim that their products are non-corrosive. However, the
corrosion inhibitors are a short-term fix that leave engines prone to corrosion after the additives loose their effectiveness. Since the corrosion process is not visible to the vehicle operator, it can continue until the cumulative effects induce engine malfunctions and failures. Again, quoting Mr. LePera:

“Corrosion within an engine can be a ‘silent killer.’”

These concerns are supported by military lubricating oil specifications and commercial specifications
prohibiting use of chlorinated additives.

Engine components

Further, Mr. Cliff Gottlob of Gottlob Research and Engineering reports:

“This [by-product of chlorine in engines] is a very corrosive product that is not only detrimental to such components as bearings, pistons and any metal parts, but also the environment. ... The devastating effect of chlorine on such items as rubber, neoprene, cork and compositions which are basic ingredients used in seals, gaskets, etc., is extremely bad.”

Labels dodge issue

Unfortunately, many chlorine additive container labels do not state, “Contains chlorine.” Technically, chlorine in its pure form is a gas, so these products dodge the issue by using chlorinated hydrocarbons, paraffins, solvents, etc. If the additive container label states, “Contains no PTFE, graphite, molybdenum disulfide or solids,” the product may likely contain chlorinated additives.

Trick demonstrations

Due to chlorine’s quick reactivity, promotional demonstrations such as oilless engine operation and
bearing testers prove attractive to the unwary consumer. However, note comments from syndicated
newspaper column Drive It Forever by leading automotive expert Mr. Bob Sikorsky, member of the
SAE and STLE, nationally syndicated automotive columnist and author, and recognized consumer
advocate:

“Sadly, a number of these [chlorinated additive] infomercials use trickery and deception to convince the public to buy the product. ... The demonstrations shown in these infomercials are meaningless, and have nothing to do with what actually happens inside an engine during operation. ... The downside, which of course is never mentioned, is that it’s extremely corrosive.
“Because they are so corrosive, the oil industry stopped using chlorine compounds as engine-oil additives more than 40 years ago. You, too, should reject any product that contains chlorinated hydrocarbons. ... I personally sent samples of both [Dura-Lube and Prolong] products to a respected lab for analysis of chlorine content. Dura-Lube tested at 6.8 percent chlorine, while Prolong came in, incredibly, at just under 30 percent. ... [From another column.] Motor-Up was shown to contain 17.9 percent chlorine.

“Choosing the right product could mean the difference between real 50,000-mile engine wear protection, and an engine hosting unproven possibly dangerous formulations. ...
Only ASTM- and SAE-approved engine tests are meaningful, and neither of these companies [Dura-Lube and Prolong] has proven its product under these industry-recognized testing procedures.”

Longevity

An October, 1998, Consumer Report article, “Prolong additive: Don’t try this at home,” addressed the
infomercial demonstration issue:

“The bond is supposed to last even when the oil is drained. In the [Prolong] infomercial, Unser and others drive along a racetrack in the Mojave Desert without oil or oil drain plugs. The same ad, broadcast nationally, pictures a woman who, thanks to Prolong, supposedly drove from Santa Barbara to Los Angeles without oil. (The reason she stopped after 4 hours, 40 minutes, and 7 seconds? She was hungry.)
“We didn’t test the other claims, but we did see whether Prolong would protect an engine after the oil was drained.
“We installed a factory-rebuilt GM 4.3-liter V6 engine into each of two Chevrolet Caprices. We broke them in with Pennzoil motor oil, and added Prolong to one of them. Prolong claims to work immediately. We drove more than 100 miles, then drained the oil and started driving again. After only 13 minutes and five miles, both engines failed simultaneously.”
 
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Originally Posted By: Trav
Didnt you post this in another thread? Whats the problem? For cripes sake man get a pair you sound like some sort of old lady.


Certainly is a theme, eh?

Seriously, this place and it's lively banter are one of the reasons for big readership/participation. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we hate you personally or are mean spirited. And he has an equal right to post his feelings, just not a right to expect no response or only a response he likes.

Opinions are just that. Some have more weight than others. That's for each to decide, and it is unreasonable to appear on a public forum and expect everyone to be in line with your standards of behavior. Ain't likely.
 
Skyship,

The Internet is full of stuff like the anti-Prolong article you posted. You are absolutely correct about it as I would never put that chlorine [censored] in my engine, either.

It's lumping them all together with notable exceptions that amuses us here. At least either be specific or consistent.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Skyship,

The Internet is full of stuff like the anti-Prolong article you posted. You are absolutely correct about it as I would never put that chlorine [censored] in my engine, either.

It's lumping them all together with notable exceptions that amuses us here. At least either be specific or consistent.


There are Chlorine based compounds in a lot more snake oils than just Prolong, but it is not shown on the list of ingrediants and does not show up in a basic UOA. You need a full chemical analysis to understand the full horrors of the contents of a can of snake oil.
Corrosion plays a major part in premature bearing failure but it often won't show up for several OCI's after something nasty is added to the oil.
 
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MMO HAS CHLORINATED PARAFFIN. IM RUNNING IT IN MY TRUCK. WHAT? WHAT?
THEY ONLY FORM ACIDS WHEN INTRODUCED TO WATER AND THEN THE OIL NEUTRALIZES THEM ANYWAY.

btw how many engines have you built? I ask because its wierd to me that an expert mechanic/engineer doesnt know the difference between a block and bearings.
 
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