The common belief is that the bulk of engine wear occurs during start up.
Is that really true?
If so, what would the rough percent of wear attributed to start up in an average engine driven the typical 12K miles a year in a mix of city and hiway use with Mid America seasonal changes.
Third, given the effort we all go to in order to minimize engine wear and assuming start up wear is a significant factor, I'd think more would consider pre-oilers, either the accumlator type or pump type. Is it the mechanical complexity that keeps people away from them?
Thanks for your comments.
When does the most engine wear occur?
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I do believe that most wear is on startup before the hydrodynamic oil wedge is formed.
Preoilers are a cure looking for a problem. The wear is managable...for a well maintained engine, the rest of the car is junk about the same time the engine is worn out.
Ken
Bit off topic.
I went to a website put up by a guy with a very expensive stroked V8 engine in an old 1970s Holden Torana (or similar).
He said that because the car was infrequently used, he used to pull the spark plug leads and give the car a good cranking before starting it for the purpose of pre-lubrication.
I'd say most wear occurs during startup AND warmup - ie: while the oil is too thick to circulate properly. The typical multigrade oil is 5-6 times thicker @ 40C (104F) than it is at an approximate operating temp of 100C (212F). During this time the oil filter is in partial by-pass mode from excessive oil pressure, which does not help either ....
Once the engine is fully warmed up, most wear occurs as a result of abrasive particles and from the corrosive effects of combustion byproducts. There should be very little metal to metal contact occuring if the correct SAE grade of oil is being used in the application.
TS
I recently conducted an oil filter experiment on my vintage Toyota 4M 6 cylinder engine.
Using a video camera, I recorded the time it took for the oil pressure light to go out when the engine was first started in the morning when fitted with the old style giant sized 6 cylinder Toyota Landcruiser oil filter.
Then I repeated the test using the new downsized Landcruiser oil filter which is only half as big.
I found the oil pressure light stayed on 1.6 seconds using the giant Landcruiser engine oil filter and only 0.9 seconds using the downsized Landcruiser oil filter.
Take home lesson: The new downsized OEM oil filters that Toyota / Honda /Nissan are now using are subtantially reducing cold start engine wear by enabling the oil pressure to build up substantially quicker.
How many filters did you try this with?
the destruction of an engine is not about wear, friction, we all forget that acid is the cuprit neutralize the acids and oil changes will keep an engine going for along time
quote:Malibu, this is a great observation! And it never occured to me that reducing start-up wear might be the reason for the smaller filters! I thought that Honda might be using the smaller filters for better filtration efficiency since they also doubled the change interval, i.e. they recommend a filter change every other oil change. A dirty filter being more efficient than a clean one apparently. This may still be true also. [ March 17, 2003, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
Originally posted by Malibu: ...Take home lesson: The new downsized OEM oil filters that Toyota / Honda /Nissan are now using are subtantially reducing cold start engine wear by enabling the oil pressure to build up substantially quicker.
OneQuartLow, I believe anyone here that uses the tiny Toyota OEM filter on their 4 cylinder Camry or Corolla motor would agree with me that the oil pressure light goes out almost instantly when the car is first started in the morning.
quote:I meant the oversize filter, not the undersize. What I'm curious about is if you found an oversize with a defective ADBV. I've noticed a disappointing number of filters with offset or misclamped valves that could never seal. (PurONE, Mobil1, Baldwin, Wix since I started looking.) This would cause nearly the same symptom of delayed startup pressure as would installing a new unprimed filter. I'm assuming the filters you're talking about have ADBV's?
Originally posted by Malibu: OneQuartLow, I believe anyone here that uses the tiny Toyota OEM filter on their 4 cylinder Camry or Corolla motor would agree with me that the oil pressure light goes out almost instantly when the car is first started in the morning.
Either filter has the ADBV. Why would a pass through device have any time lag? Should be the same regardless. Only if the ADBV has failed should the lightoff time increase. Either filter should always stay full.
Where is the oil pressure sensor in the oil circuit?
The oil light in every car that I owned shut off before releasing the key. Never bothered timing it.
I believe that most wear occurs because of poor maintenance. I used to collect store accounts and one of my cars would be started 100 times a shift. Toss in the fact that I drove that car 200k miles and it ran perfectly until wrecked. I don't think there is as much wear at startup as most people think.
The only reason a smaller filter would allow the engine oil to "build pressure" sooner is if the anti-drainback valve is faulty, thereby allowing the filter to empty between startups. Then this volume needs refilled before the engine gets it's flow. With a working anti-drainback valve, the filter with the larger capacity would allow the engine to get the "pressure" sooner, because more filter media means LESS pressure drop.
Oil is a liquid, and liquids are very incompressible. For liquids, volume has virtually nothing to do with building pressure.
I haven't noticed Honda filters getting smaller.
quote:
Originally posted by Jay:quote:Malibu, this is a great observation! And it never occured to me that reducing start-up wear might be the reason for the smaller filters! I thought that Honda might be using the smaller filters for better filtration efficiency since they also doubled the change interval, i.e. they recommend a filter change every other oil change. A dirty filter being more efficient than a clean one apparently. This may still be true also.
Originally posted by Malibu: ...Take home lesson: The new downsized OEM oil filters that Toyota / Honda /Nissan are now using are subtantially reducing cold start engine wear by enabling the oil pressure to build up substantially quicker.
Malibu , Those snow flake design filter element not sure of the proper name of the design. is claimed to have the same filter media as a fram ph8a filter in my area they are not available just the made in usa brand.
I think people don't realize that their engines "wear" from things like revving the engine when not under load, lugging the engine or stalling, or running when poorly maintained. Wear can be the physical abrasion or structural demise of components.
When a car is properly maintained and operated, the cost of engine wear is much less significant than the cost of keeping the rest of the car in operating condition. I do the right things for my cars, I never had an engine component wear out in my 20 years of driving.
[ March 17, 2003, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
I agree, unDummy, that in the real world most engines wear out because owners don't keep their fuel, ignition, emmission and cooling systems in optimum shape through regular maintenance. They just change the oil and oil filter and consider this "keeping their car well maintained." Then if power or economy goes down they toss in an additive and say to themselves "I'm doing the best job I can to maintain this car."
On Toyotas, most oil filters are mounted on the side of the engine block. So when the engine is shut off a fair amount of oil drains back into the engine despite the antidrainback valve. Indeed, Toyota owners know that to avoid spilling alot of oil on the side of the engine block, when changing the oil filter, they should just let the engine oil drain for 4 hours or more (or overnight).
I'm trying to remember my fluid dynamics class... a check valve of minimal weight should be able to be mounted in any direction and be just as effective, considering that it's the head of liquid above it that keeps the valve shut, not the weight of the valve itself.
Oil filters that are mounted seal-side-up are closer to the bottom of the engine, right? Therefore you could lose all the oil in the passageway up to the engine and the filter would still be full. On a side-mounted filter, the filter is higher up in the passageway, and an ineffective ADBV would be noticed sooner by less oil in the filter at removal.
quote:[ March 17, 2003, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
Originally posted by Malibu: On Toyotas, most oil filters are mounted on the side of the engine block. So when the engine is shut off a fair amount of oil drains back into the engine despite the antidrainback valve
quote:Yes, many vehicles use horizontally mounted filters. Regardless, unless the ADBV is defective or substandard (metal on metal) they will not drain unless your oil passages lead down from the outlet. Not that I've taken a survey, but I don't recall seeing anything but over and up outlet passages. What's the case with your engine?
Originally posted by Malibu: On Toyotas, most oil filters are mounted on the side of the engine block. So when the engine is shut off a fair amount of oil drains back into the engine despite the antidrainback valve. ...
Steve S,
PM me for the place to get toyota filters cheap as I know we can't post links to non site supporters sales pages on here. ![[Cheers!]](/forums/graemlins/cheers.gif)
[ March 18, 2003, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
[ March 18, 2003, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]Malibu,
I think that's one of the funnier comments you have made ....
Vehicle manufacturers have standardized around a small filter for their complete line of engines to save $$$ and allow tighter packaging of engine components. It has absolutely nothing to do with building oil pressure after a cold start. I've never seen any data (SAE papers, etc) to support this notion.
TooSlick
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