Wheel comes off vehicle while driving, Honda Fit

[OrdnanceMarine]

Originally Posted By: urchin
My question would be why would you want a huge wheel for a car like this heck the there is NO practical benefit at all in larger wheel sizes. It adds unsprung weight to the suspension (decreases handling ) and increases braking distances as well.

No ordinary passenger car has any need at all for anything over a 16" wheel. Even most performance cars actually have degraded handling with wheels over 16" not to mention the weight it adds.

The only positive thing about them is the huge extra profit they make for the manufacturers.

I still say that the girls father should have known better than to trust a parts store with touching the car. Firstly it is involving the safety of his daughter and secondly almost everybody knows about the incompetence of auto parts chain stores! Even this guy should have known.

I think they were being extremely cheap!

I bet that if the buyer would have simply gone back to the dealer and asked for locking lug nuts they would have installed them for free only charging for the parts. Sadly I bet the Honda Geniune locks would have only been a few bucks more than the junky autp parts store product.


Wow. I guess you weren't kidding. You really did mean what you said. You make a lot of assumptions. I'll leave it at that.

 

[OrdnanceMarine]

Originally Posted By: urchin
Originally Posted By: GMBoy


If that were true than Corvette, Porsche and other drivers who race their cars would be replacing their larger wheels for smaller 16 inchers.


No they wouldn't because the profit margin and style over rules this even on today's so called performance cars.

The worst thing that has happened in recent car styling history was the trend towards ...." Looook at the Wheeeeeelsss!

Fact is unsprung weight destroys any benefits made by putting large wheels on a car. Even the light weight metals used in the huge "dubs" on these sports cars today can be really heavy .


Wonder what kind of brakes you can stuff under your 500+ HP Corvette with 15" wheels? Guess you're advocating multi-disc setups like you see on commercial and military aircraft? I don't see how else you get enough metal and surface area in there to do the job.

Even a low-key "sports" car like my Si couldn't fit 16" wheels over the front rotors and it's brakes are a little undersized for track use. It turns out that 17" is the optimal size and my car only weighs in at about 3000 lbs. Do you know how heavy a tire would have to be with a stiff enough sidewall to keep the tire from rolling over on to the sidewall itself under hard cornering if it had a super-tall sidewall like you mention? Have you considered that there are really only two ways to add traction: make the tire wider or increase the circumference? My little 2.0L Si shreds my maximum performance summer tires through all of 1st gear making me wish it was set up with wider and taller wheels and tires from the factory so I can't even begin to think about how you go about trying to get something with 3-times the engine displacement to hook up with the road and do anything but create smoke without moving forward unless you build wheels that are a lot larger.

Or you can go on believing that these guys that spend thousands and tens of thousands of dollars each year to track their cars really care about having wheels larger than 16" because they like losing lap time so they can "look cool".

 

[zyxelenator]

2 options: nuts were to short, and they were not installed in star shape,or torqued enough. Possibly wheel wasn't pushed tight to hub,and wheel was installed like that / instead of |
Done it ones while working at Goodyear, caught it almost right away. If I wouldn't someone could get killed. Always double check your work.
Couple years ago I lost front left wheel on my previous car, while going 80mph on hwy(bearing popped). Not the best feeling,and not cheap fix afterwards.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: urchin
My question would be why would you want a huge wheel for a car like this heck the there is NO practical benefit at all in larger wheel sizes. It adds unsprung weight to the suspension (decreases handling ) and increases braking distances as well.

No ordinary passenger car has any need at all for anything over a 16" wheel. Even most performance cars actually have degraded handling with wheels over 16" not to mention the weight it adds.


175/65R15 wheels are not huge in any way, and I think you've heard too many myths about the effect of "unsprung weight" on braking distances.

There isn't much, if any, weight gain involved in going with a wheel/tire combo that is the same width and rolling diameter but with a larger wheel. The road would have to be in very poor condition for a similar tire with more sidewall than a 175/65R15 to have an advantage in handling or braking. A washboard gravel road would certainly do it.

I'm not going to argue that wheels aren't often unnecessarily large on newer vehicles, but there are advantages in going bigger up to a point, and that point is well above 16" on many larger and/or high performance vehicles. I also won't argue that any legally operated passenger car on public roads needs any of the performance advantages that larger sizes can provide, but even the Fit has power and luxury well beyond that which is necessary for purely practical reasons.

 

[Hootbro]

I would recommend your friend lawyer up because this is how it is going to play out.

I would bet somewhere, somehow that there is some disclaimer that suitability and applicability will rest on the end user regardless of what the counter jockey pulled and recommended. Also, the auto parts store is going to tell the counter jockey to shut up and then it will become a "she said, he said" and for the lawyers to figure out.

 

[KrisZ]

The counter guy is a dumb [censored] and the ultimate fault lies with him.

His compensation has nothing to do with it, as his job description did not include working on customer's cars.

 

[rslifkin]

^ Agree with that one.

On the large wheels thing, the primary reason a lot of sports cars run bigger wheels is to fit bigger brakes. Many cars come with as small a wheel as they can fit in stock form, unless you option larger ones.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: urchin
Why this person , most likely not over 25 and making 8 or so dollars an hour that used to work at McDonalds couldn't possibly be expected to have any real knowledge except for what is on a computer terminal or in a parts book.


Perhaps sometime during this person's 12 years of public education they might have gone over the metric system?

 

[R2d2]

You can get OEM Honda lug locks(Mcgard) on ebay for $35 US shipped. They take about five minutes to install. I put the blame here 75% counter person, 25% typical female driver.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: urchin
Originally Posted By: GMBoy


If that were true than Corvette, Porsche and other drivers who race their cars would be replacing their larger wheels for smaller 16 inchers.


No they wouldn't because the profit margin and style over rules this even on today's so called performance cars.

The worst thing that has happened in recent car styling history was the trend towards ...." Looook at the Wheeeeeelsss!

Fact is unsprung weight destroys any benefits made by putting large wheels on a car. Even the light weight metals used in the huge "dubs" on these sports cars today can be really heavy .


Feel free to try and fit a 15" wheel over my BMW brakes, those on a Cobra, Corvette or any other car that has large brakes from the factory. I mean obviously the 18" wheels on my car are for show and not to clear the calipers (an example of the fit):

 

[mechanicx]

The parts guy was really clueless and most at blame. Even most all American cars made in the last 30 years are so have used metric lugs, leave alone foreign cars. Then he replaces ALL the lug nuts with the Dorman china lugs that start rusting in a few weeks

.

This whole situation is full of fail. In ascending order from least to most at blame, the car owner for not getting OEM locking lugs, the shop for suggesting to put on any ol brand of locking lug nuts, and the parts store counter guy most of all. Just a string of bad decisions leading to this result. Again, the parts guy is really where all the blame lies. Ultimately I believe the auto parts store will have to be responsible.

About the large diameter wheels, there can be several factors for their use. Brake size and styling of course, but also ride height clearance, and to maintain suspension geometry (scrub radius) for the lower profile tire option, and ride quality. Cars have lower profile tires and if the wheel diameter was allowed the over tire diameter would be less, but larger diameter tires can ride better over uneven roads and bumps.

 

[bigmike]

Wow.. For the sake of not wanting to overuse the Captain Picard FULL OF WIN graphic again...

But this thread is FULL OF WIN!

FULL!!

Just consider what kind of discussion we'd all be having had this girl flipped the car off a bridge or something and died from this. She's blessed that something more severe didn't happen.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: urchin
Originally Posted By: GMBoy


If that were true than Corvette, Porsche and other drivers who race their cars would be replacing their larger wheels for smaller 16 inchers.


No they wouldn't because the profit margin and style over rules this even on today's so called performance cars.

The worst thing that has happened in recent car styling history was the trend towards ...." Looook at the Wheeeeeelsss!

Fact is unsprung weight destroys any benefits made by putting large wheels on a car. Even the light weight metals used in the huge "dubs" on these sports cars today can be really heavy .


Feel free to try and fit a 15" wheel over my BMW brakes, those on a Cobra, Corvette or any other car that has large brakes from the factory. I mean obviously the 18" wheels on my car are for show and not to clear the calipers (an example of the fit):

This guy will never understand. I love those 18" wheels on your car, BTW!

I support larger wheels and tires as they come from the factory. These setups are engineered and designed to work safely and offer performance and ride quality. Heck, my CTS has 18" wheels and they look great and ride fine. The "wheel hater" urchin also fails to understand that most new cars are designed to accept these wheels...the wheel wells would look awful with a small 16" tire when it came with a larger size.

EXCEPTION: I really don't like aftermarket deals when people put like 24" tires on cars that originally had 15/16" tires. Now that is unsafe as well as mostly ugly. How mant 4x4 Crown Vics have you seen lately - looks like they sit 4 feet in the sky! If Urchin is speaking of this, then yeah I can agree with him. But as for OEM - big wheels are "just right".

 

[urchin]

The reason you need those huge brakes on these modern day performance oriented cars is mainly because of how bloated and over weight they are.

The sad thing is to see BMWs that now have fluff and gadgets galore and increasingly sloppier handling, controls that are more numb than ever and less connection with the driver too.

Weight KILLS performance and dulls nimble handling! It is that simple.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Yeah, you're right newer cars aren't much faster than the 'old daze'... or are they?

My 70 Chevelle 454 4 speed was equipped with real disc brakes (front only) and 15 inch wheels. Top speed was about 140 mph, but more realistically was 135 or so. Weight was around 3800 pounds or so.

Now my 4 door luxo barge goes 180. Effortlessly, all day long, no strain at all, not even close to redline. Weight? 4040 empty.

You're [censored] right it's got 20 inch wheels, and that's to clear the 14 + inch brake rotors and 4 piston fixed calipers. It stops quicker than most sports cars (60-0 in less than 110 feet).

I'm ok with that.

Forget the [censored] about older cars, they aren't even in the same zip code anymore.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: urchin
The reason you need those huge brakes on these modern day performance oriented cars is mainly because of how bloated and over weight they are.

The sad thing is to see BMWs that now have fluff and gadgets galore and increasingly sloppier handling, controls that are more numb than ever and less connection with the driver too.

Weight KILLS performance and dulls nimble handling! It is that simple.


I sort of agree with you there. I'm not a big fan of large, heavy 4-doors with sport suspensions, sport Summer tires and huge brakes and sports car engine. Namely cars like M5 (no offense to overk1ll but he likes Fords anyway lol) and the Cadillac CTS-V. IMO a large 4-door car should be more about comfort. The FE1 and FE2 Cadillac suspensions seems right and the FE3 seems to be a little too much and wrecking the luxury cars firm enough but compliant ride. On the other hand, I'm not saying a sporty car has to be Corvete size or cramped and noisy but it shouldn't be a large 4-door. The Germans seem to like 4-doors and to make big luxury cars perform like sports cars. Maybe it makes more sense over there. Anyway, I don't really see anything wrong with making sport suspension and engine packages optional on a luxury car. Besides we are only talking a few inches give or take on the brake and wheel size with OEM. No big deal really. We're really derailing this thread lol.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: urchin
The reason you need those huge brakes on these modern day performance oriented cars is mainly because of how bloated and over weight they are.

The sad thing is to see BMWs that now have fluff and gadgets galore and increasingly sloppier handling, controls that are more numb than ever and less connection with the driver too.

Weight KILLS performance and dulls nimble handling! It is that simple.


It's a 3900lb 4-door sedan with 400HP and a 300Km/h top speed. It needs big brakes.

It has a 6spd manual, and there is nothing numb or sloppy about this car in any way shape or form. And is the reason the E39 M5 is regarded by many as the best M5 BMW has ever made. [censored], that's one (of many) of the reasons I bought the bloody thing. It is a "drivers car" and I love driving!

BTW, have you actually ever DRIVEN an ///M-series car or are you just running your lips because you like to hear yourself talk and think that there are people on this board stupid enough to believe you?

I think there is a fine line that you are not only blurring, but obliterating between factory-spec'd larger wheels like 18' or 19's to clear the brakes on high-performance sedans and sports cars, and morons putting 24" wheels on an Escalade or 22" wheels on a Civic. These are NOT the same discussion. If you had kept your argument to the latter camp (non-performance cars with baby brakes and huge wheels) I would not have taken issue with it. But you start lumping high-performance sedans and sports cars that are setup to stop (repeatedly) from 150+Mph during tracking events and you completely lose all credibility.

 

[PF52]

Where's that guy who hates factory-installed fog lights? I bet he'd be able to contribute some nonsense to this discussion!

 

[mechanicx]

Like I was saying,I'm not sure if it is my cup of tea but the M5 is optional and not standard equipment so I don't see anything wrong with that. It's wheels and tires and brakes are only the size required to meet its performance parameters. I don't know why anyone would have a problem with that

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: urchin
The reason you need those huge brakes on these modern day performance oriented cars is mainly because of how bloated and over weight they are.

The sad thing is to see BMWs that now have fluff and gadgets galore and increasingly sloppier handling, controls that are more numb than ever and less connection with the driver too.

Weight KILLS performance and dulls nimble handling! It is that simple.


I sort of agree with you there. I'm not a big fan of large, heavy 4-doors with sport suspensions, sport Summer tires and huge brakes and sorts car engine. Namely cars like M5 (no offense to overk1ll but he likes Fords anyway lol) and the Cadillac CTS-V. IMO a large 4-door car should be more about comfort. The FE1 and FE2 Cadillac suspensions seems right and the FE3 seems to be a little too much and wrecking the luxury cars firm enough but compliant ride. On the other hand, I'm not saying a sporty car has to be Corvete size or cramped and nosiy but it shouldn't be a large 4-door. The Germans seem to like 4-doors and to make big luxury cars perform like sports cars. Maybe it makes more since over there. Anyway, I don't really see anything wrong with making sport suspension and engine packages optional on a luxury car. Besides we are only talking a few inches give or take on the brake and wheel size with OEM. No big deal really. We're really derailing this thread lol.


[censored]

It is a European thing I think. Particular "ze Germans!". They like going fast, and often, taking the family. Hence, you get high-performance 4-door cars.

Makes perfect sense to me. I mean the cars are NOT that heavy really. My old Mustang was only 400lbs lighter. But the M5, unlike the Mustang, can fit (comfortably) a family of 5, with plenty of luggage space. And when I'm alone in it, can be driven in ways the Mustang never could. And I can drag it to Mosport and do laps. Then take the kids to the cottage with it on the weekend. There's a target audience here (and I'm not talking about the "poseurs" who buy them to never track or drive hard) of automotive enthusiasts who like this style of car.

And yes, this thread has become woefully derailed.