What's wrong with Hondas & Toyotas?

[cangreylegend]

Well first off they all exhibit that rear wheel arch rust and this has been hoing on for over ten years!!! From Civics to Legends and RLs. Every one of them.

Why couldn't they just fix it. In the 80's they put on this moulding that just rusted out and made it worse by trapping moisture there. On the lowlt Corolla of 2003, I see Toyota has gone and sealed that arch joint altogether. Why do domestics NOT suffer from this.

It's as bad as a leaking gasket from GM. On the Legends from 1991-1996, they pretty much all end up with BHGs. No recall nothing.

Honda main relays are made so cheaply, it's ridiculous. They can be fixed for 0.25 if you know how, but the average customer is in for about $100 all told.

Hondas generally have rotors that warp easily. Don't know why.

On the early 90s Camry, their stupid sway bar bushings always wear out like after two years and start making all kinds of noises.

 

[ruking77]

Just think, with GM and Ford going down the slippery slope, what incentives will Honda or Toyota have to do anything about it?

 

[drive it forever]

Cangreylegend, if you want a car that you can "drive it forever", please tell me what new make and model you would purchase and why.

 

[rjundi]

And your point is?

All cars have problems at one time or another, there is no perfect car. That is the adventure in owning one.

I'll add my car, why do Subaru's all leak oil at some point in their life? It's just inevitable in that boxer engine.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Here in Michigan any vechile driven in the winter that is made out of steel will rust unless washed weekly! Sure surface coating and sealer help but nothing can resist the chlorinated salt that they dump on the roads! Then you also have urea usualy from bat guano(sp) and finaly sand! To add to this we have a large number of gravel roads adn gravel trains to help chip the snot out of your vechile!

So in Michigan I actualy see more rusting buicks and chevy's then anything else. This is mostly due to the shear number of GM products on the road and isnot a bash against GM at all. Now today I do not see Honda or Toyota as being more rust prone then their domestic counter parts! If we were talking about the 1970's and 1980's I would agree with you especialy when talking about cars. The Toyota's trucks inported to the Northern states had beds made in Ohio that were not made to Toyota's spec. and had a seem in them ans those rusted out really badly. The same year trucks imported through Jaskonville Fl. had the Toytoa spec. bed and were almost impervious to rust.

The old Datsun hatch backs were rust magnets. I used to joke that you could hematicly seal these cars in a valut and with time lapse photography what them disapear! I think alot of their early rust issues had to do with their ignorance of the USA's environment! By the mid 1980's all but the lowest cost economy cars had preety good rust proofing and coatings and this continuned to improve. The lowest cost economy cars have always had the lowest level of rust proofing even amoung domestics. Cavalier's in Michigan are usualy rusted away long before the engine and transmission fail!

 

[Steve S]

Japanese car are cheap cars made good. American cars are good cars made cheap.

 

[eljefino]

Good thread. I always wondered what specifically to watch out for if buying a Japanese car used. Usually it's price gouging by the seller. I guess I like my used cars a little "rougher", that is, unpopular, nerdy, and/or in need of some mechanical attention. They're cheaper too.

This body style Geo Prism/Toyota Corrolla apparantly has major strut issues. This particular example also had something wierd, like an inner tie rod end, going on in the steering rack at only 110k miles. The radiators are also somewhat weak. This one is a 1990 so it's hard to be critical... only that the items I mention seem to be the first to go. This is not just based on my survey of one but vehicles I've seen in junkyards and anecdotes I overhear. Oh, and the shifter cable was wicked stiff.

Bought the above example to fix up and give a brother-in-law, but wound up selling to a stranger instead. Car was impressively rust-free.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by eljefino:
Usually it's price gouging by the seller.

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I sold my mom's old 1997 Ford Escort 5-speed with 88K miles and nothing wrong with it for $2K.

I looked on craigslist.org and most of the stuff made by Toyota and Honda in that price range was pretty rough looking, to put it nicely. I kinda got the impression on a few of them that someone just cashed the insurance company check and never got the body damage fixed..

 

[brianl703]

Honda oxygen sensors are ridiculously overpriced, and, I suspect, prone to heater failure at higher mileages.

http://www.oxygensensors.com has the most reasonably priced replacement Honda oxygen sensors I've ever found. They sell both Denso and Walker brand sensors. I recently put a Walker sensor ($60, would've been $250 for a Bosch at Autozone) into a 1997 Del Sol because of a heater failure on the pre-cat sensor. (I was just going to use a universal sensor to save about $200 if I hadn't found oxygensensors.com )

What's interesting is that it caused the idle to be screwy, making me wonder just how simple Honda's fuel injection computers are. They've got to be pretty simple if lack of oxygen sensor input at idle causes them to lose proper idle control.

 

[buster]

What's wrong with Hondas & Toyotas? I'd suspect that they can't make enough of them to sell because people keep buying them up and putting GM in the grave.

Toyota and Honda, like anything else, have quality issues of their own. They just have "less" problems then the others.

 

[Horatio]

This is largely a regional thing (I think) but the rust problem for Hondas seems to be much improved for Hondas here in Alberta since somewhere around 1990.

I love my '99 Civic Hatchback but a couple of my complaints are with the crumby defroster (couple of ideas on how to fix), the drivers window is a PAIN to roll up when it gets REALLY cold (a Honda-mechanic friend of mine tells me that all Civics of this generation have this problem; the window track bends or deforms or something like that...I should replace it), the A/C is a little on the weak side and I've never really liked the way the wipers work, somehow. Other goofy things like I didn't like the feel of the e-brake handle or shift knob it came with and it's a little light on soundproofind...oh and the classic "oil filter sideways above the exhaust pipe"

Actually, when I was first researching buying it, I found a forum where Honda owners complained bitterly about some of the problems they found with the car. Wish I could find that site now, might be interesting.

Greg

 

[Kernel Potter]

I see the same thing. Look at any honda product that's about 6 years old(or older) and about 3 out of 4 have a lot rust on the rear wheel well. That plus the lousy transmissions. I have no idea why anyone out of the sun belt would even consider buying a Honda.

Toyotas - how many years have they regressed the "stone-age 3,000 mile" oil change? Go over 3K with over-the-counter PCMO and you're playing Russian roulette. If something does go wrong, Toyota will tell you it's your fault or bad American oil, bad American gasoline, bad American factory/dealer workers etc. I've heard this BS so many times it's ridiculous. Or the dinosaur rubber timing belts that you can do all the tune-ups and sometimes also all the repairs on an American car for that price alone.

Just spend thousands of dollars replacing everything on the car as "normal maintenance". Hey it's reliable, I just spent $3,000 for maintenace in 5 years so nothing will break - just like Toyota told me to do like the sheep I am and I'm so happy.

And those two makes are the reliable, "gold standard" Japanese brands

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kernel Potter:
Just spend thousands of dollars replacing everything on the car as "normal maintenance". Hey it's reliable, I just spent $3,000 for maintenace in 5 years so nothing will break - just like Toyota told me to do like the sheep I am and I'm so happy.

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I've sometimes thought that the easiest solution for the domestic's percieved quality problems is to just redefine what's "normal maintenenance".

**** , Ford doesn't even give a timing belt replacement interval for some of their engines. They don't recommend brake fluid flushes, they say that the manual transmission fluid NEVER needs to be changed, they AND GM give what I believe to be unrealistically long maintenance intervals for the automatic transmission. I believe that the Honda 90,000 mile service even includes a power steering fluid change..which neither GM or Ford recommends that I've ever seen.

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kernel Potter:
I see the same thing. Look at any honda product that's about 6 years old(or older) and about 3 out of 4 have a lot rust on the rear wheel well. That plus the lousy transmissions. I have no idea why anyone out of the sun belt would even consider buying a Honda.

Toyotas - how many years have they regressed the "stone-age 3,000 mile" oil change? Go over 3K with over-the-counter PCMO and you're playing Russian roulette. If something does go wrong, Toyota will tell you it's your fault or bad American oil, bad American gasoline, bad American factory/dealer workers etc. I've heard this BS so many times it's ridiculous. Or the dinosaur rubber timing belts that you can do all the tune-ups and sometimes also all the repairs on an American car for that price alone.

Just spend thousands of dollars replacing everything on the car as "normal maintenance". Hey it's reliable, I just spent $3,000 for maintenace in 5 years so nothing will break - just like Toyota told me to do like the sheep I am and I'm so happy.

And those two makes are the reliable, "gold standard" Japanese brands

---

Toyota had a V6 engine in certain applications with sludge problems. They dropped the OCI on those vehicles and modified the PCV system.

The standard service OCI on my V6 4Runner is 7500 miles and I routinely run 10K miles with synthetics. No sludge and good UOA's.

The timing belt replacement interval on that same 3.4L V6 engine is 90K miles, and they typically run 100K plus with no problems.

In 83K miles on that vehicle and following "normal maintenance" in the manual the only replacement parts I've purchased are tires, lubricants, filters, one set of spark plugs, and a couple of light bulbs.

You were saying?

 

[Bryanccfshr]

quote:

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Originally posted by jsharp:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kernel Potter:
I see the same thing. Look at any honda product that's about 6 years old(or older) and about 3 out of 4 have a lot rust on the rear wheel well. That plus the lousy transmissions. I have no idea why anyone out of the sun belt would even consider buying a Honda.

Toyotas - how many years have they regressed the "stone-age 3,000 mile" oil change? Go over 3K with over-the-counter PCMO and you're playing Russian roulette. If something does go wrong, Toyota will tell you it's your fault or bad American oil, bad American gasoline, bad American factory/dealer workers etc. I've heard this BS so many times it's ridiculous. Or the dinosaur rubber timing belts that you can do all the tune-ups and sometimes also all the repairs on an American car for that price alone.

Just spend thousands of dollars replacing everything on the car as "normal maintenance". Hey it's reliable, I just spent $3,000 for maintenace in 5 years so nothing will break - just like Toyota told me to do like the sheep I am and I'm so happy.

And those two makes are the reliable, "gold standard" Japanese brands

---

Toyota had a V6 engine in certain applications with sludge problems. They dropped the OCI on those vehicles and modified the PCV system.

The standard service OCI on my V6 4Runner is 7500 miles and I routinely run 10K miles with synthetics. No sludge and good UOA's.

The timing belt replacement interval on that same 3.4L V6 engine is 90K miles, and they typically run 100K plus with no problems.

In 83K miles on that vehicle and following "normal maintenance" in the manual the only replacement parts I've purchased are tires, lubricants, filters, one set of spark plugs, and a couple of light bulbs.

You were saying?

---

He did make quite a jump there about OCI's and maintenance intervals.
I remember my American car days and all the frustrating mechanical issues, that made it a PITA to own.
All I have to do is look at what most my extended family owns and I can see that Toyota and Honda is gaining garage space.

What is wrong with Honda and Toyota? Less things than the competition. My dad has two 15 year old Toyota trucks. He get's the oil changed and replaces the tires. back and forth to work for 15 years, Pulling unbelieveable(and unrated) loads, use as trash and farm trucks. The insides are in terrible shape from so much use and I doubt they have been washed or vacuumed in the past 6 or ten years. They are in hideous physical condition with torn seats, fades paint , etc. Not a week goes by that my dad doesn't get a decent cash offer on one of those trucks.

He Was a chevy man along time ago.

One sister and her husband are into Toyotas. A Matrix and My sister had to follow me and get a 4x4 Tacoma.

My Mom Drives a KIA(She has driven Kias since they became available)

My other sister is on her last smokey Saturn, since she has a kid I have talked her into getting a Honda CR-v.

The only thing really wriong with Honda And Toyota is they still **** a few people off. Which makes owning them all the more gratifying.

 

[kenw]

bryan, some people just can't handle facts.

Never let facts get in the way of some warm, fuzzy emotional bigotry....

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by kenw:
Never let facts get in the way of some warm, fuzzy emotional bigotry....

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There's a couple of examples of someone not letting facts get in the way of their trashing domestic vehicles in that other thread.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bryanccfshr:
The only thing really wriong with Honda And Toyota is they still **** a few people off. Which makes owning them all the more gratifying.

---

I'll tell you what's gratifying. It's having a well-kept domestic vehicle that makes people do double-takes when they see the odometer and make comments like, "This car really has that many miles on it?".

I typically make a comment like "Proper maintenance will enable almost any modern vehicle to attain high mileage".

 

[JeepZJ4.0]

quote:

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Originally posted by brianl703:
I typically make a comment like "Proper maintenance will enable almost any modern vehicle to attain high mileage".

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Very very true. Our 2000 Ford Windstar had 70K miles before we traded it last year. Thats 70K miles in less than 3 years of ownership. All it had were oil changes, tires, fuel system cleanings and one tuneup (just for kicks).

 

[Bryanccfshr]

quote:

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Originally posted by brianl703:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bryanccfshr:
The only thing really wriong with Honda And Toyota is they still **** a few people off. Which makes owning them all the more gratifying.

---

I'll tell you what's gratifying. It's having a well-kept domestic vehicle that makes people do double-takes when they see the odometer and make comments like, "This car really has that many miles on it?".

I typically make a comment like "Proper maintenance will enable almost any modern vehicle to attain high mileage".

---

I totally agree, and at the same time I beat the snot out of the toyota offroad and in some not so nice environments, it won't be pretty in 10 years if it is still in one piece. The motor will be running, in something..
I doubt most BITOGers are going to have poorly maintained vehicles. Taking pride in any vehicle is a nice thing. Congrats on taking pride in your pride and joys. There are some old chevies and fords that I wish they would make new again. To tell the truth there are some old Toyotas I wish they would make like they used to be again..

My wife and I have rn some domestics hundreds of thousands of miles, but the most recent one we purchased was a 96 Dodge.. That and the 95 Mustang we had in the stable at the time...The mustnge was mechanicly sound but an electrical mess while the dodge couldn't keep it's exhust manifold bolted into the block. WE stepped into the realm of Japanese makers and have become jaded against trying Domestics again.

[ May 09, 2005, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: Bryanccfshr ]