What oil do you run with your TP filter?

[iceberg]

I'm just curious as to what oil types other people use with a TP based bypass filter. I am running mobile 1 10w30 the old stock that I got from pep boys when it was on sale for $3.99 and buy one get one free. So it cost $2 a quart awesome deal at the time. When that runs out I think I am probably going to switch to the mobile 5000 and change the TP at 2,000 mi intervals. Anyone here just use the el-cheap-o $.99 quart of oil on sale at the time? I'm considering that also, a .50 cent roll of scott 1000 and a $.99 quart of oil, thats a $1.49 oil change.

[ February 27, 2005, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: iceberg ]

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, depending on your mileage ..it's hard to justify using synth with a tp filter. It's fine if you're a low mileage type that uses time as an OCI factor ..but if you're a frequent flyer ..it ends up costing you about the same ..albeit at a much higher level of filtration. If you do 15k a year ..that's approx 5 tp changes ..and (probably) 5 quarts of synthetic oil ...while you may be able to go 10-15k anyway without the bypass filter. Now you've got your intitial fill (probably 5 quarts ..and at the 15k mark ..you've used approx 5 more. So you're at the same $$ mark as 7500 mile OCIs without the tp changes.

It's impractical from a cost standpoint. It only makes sense from a superior filtration standpoint if one has the extreme service duty that would require snyth oils (like subfreezing weather ..etc) ...otherwise you're draining perfectly good synth out with the shot tp.

If you have a "time" type OCI ..then it raises your cost just like the high mileage users ..but is a substantial savings over doing full oil changes with synth on the same basis.

Those who gain the most in benefit (in terms of costs) are those who do 3 month/3k OCI's on dino. They now reduce most of their expense by 75% or more.

 

[John W. Colby]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Well, depending on your mileage ..it's hard to justify using synth with a tp filter....

Those who gain the most in benefit (in terms of costs) are those who do 3 month/3k OCI's on dino. They now reduce most of their expense by 75% or more.

---

I'm not sure I can completely agree with you. If tp allows a 15k (or indefinite) oil change interval, then you are looking at $4.00 for a quart of synth and 50c for a roll of tp every 3000 miles.

If you look at the paradise garage testing, the addition of oil periodically leaves the oil "like new". Which really means you are doing a full oil change every 15k miles. Thus you could just never "change your oil" since the tp roll takes the contaminants out and the removal of 1 quart and addition of a clean quart "changes the oil" constantly.

Of course this is still 4 or more times as expensive as the same process with dino but I prefer the peace of mind of synth - which tends to have more / better additives and superior performance at the extremes.

 

[deepsquat]

the first 80000 miles or so with the bypass i ran Mobile 1 ...but i then switched to Penzoil LongLife ( 6.99 a gallon ) had an analasis done . The report was just as good as the mobile one ( though I did have Lube Control in the LL)
Now I just use the heavy duty desiel oil and save $

though I did just purshase some Mobile one for $2.00 a quart at Autozone ...couldn't pass it up .

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

Which really means you are doing a full oil change every 15k miles.

---

No really. Okay ..you misinterpret the Paradise Garage data. There was no need for 1000 miles testing on any oil. I personally did 12.5k with no make up and no filter changes. This was with an Amsoil bypass filter. The alternative with tp would have been 4 quarts of make up ..or 2/3 of my sump. in two more tp changes ..I would have been at a full swap over 18k. Not nearly enough to justify it for longevity when compared to the inherent longevity of the oil by itself.

This is not to be confused with the level of filtration. This is a different issue. This level of filtration (tp) is at the expense of the longevity of the media. You can't have ultra fine filtration in a small container. It just doesn't work that way.

Now try and remember what I said. I said synth isn't justified unless the service duty calls for it. Synth isn't justified in cost under most circumstances unless you're doing extended drains (with or without bypass filters) ..or your service duty dictates that a synth is required (extremes in temp or severity of use). The short duration of the tp filter requires (typically) far too much in $$$ for a synth to be justified.

Let me put it in these numbers to make my point.

12k OCI with synth = assume no consumption - standard filter

$4 x 6 = $24 + $2.09 filter = total $26.xx


Cost for tp bypass over the same 10k
$4 x 6 = $24 + $2.00 filter = $26.xx @ mile ZERO
+$4 @ 3000 + $0.50 tp
+$4 @ 6000 + $0.50 tp
+$4 @ 9000 + $0.50 tp
+$4 @ 12000+ $0.50 tp
Cost of bypass filter- $150-200 capital aquisition.

Assuming that there was no degradation in the oil using tp (TBN, shear, thickening, fuel, moisture, etc.) cost for 12k miles in operating expenses =

$20 more than without the tp bypass.

The second 12k is now $6 less than the 12k OCI without the tp filter.

You're looking at 50k miles to recoup your original 6 quart fill (if I kept everything straight in my head).

Now add the 6 to 8 more OCIs that you can do with the money that you spent on the bypass setup ..and you're looking at a very poor rate of return as far as $$$ saved. You may have the absolute cleanest engine known to modern man ..but you've got less money in your wallet. You could slash the synth OCI's in half and still win $$-wise.


That's why it doesn't make sense from a $ and $0.01 stand point to use a synth with a tp filter if you do over a certain amount of mileage a year.

If you're of the 3m/3k crowd ...then it can save you a decent amount of money in a few years while providing you excellent filtration even with a synth. Your looking at about 1/4 the costs if all goes well over swapping out the oil every 3 months.

Now a dino user ..of any mileage or time factored OCI can save a decent amount. The $/mile ratio is so out of whack that it works very well.

 

[John W. Colby]

The problem with that logic is that the the point of the bypass is exactly THE CLEANEST OIL ON THE PLANET. Anyone considering doing bypass filtration has already determined to do that. They want to "eliminate wear" on their engine, at least as far as wear caused by particulate matter in the oil.

Thus you have to eliminate the fixed cost from the equation since that is a given and will be incurred - tp or no tp, synth or dino.

Can you simply change your oil every 15 thousand miles and end up with the same effect as running a TP bpass? Of course not, or we wouldn't be here. Can you change your oil every 3k miles and end up with the same effect as a TP bypass filter? Getting close but still - no. Without a bypass, from the time you turn your engine over after the oil change, particules start to accumulate in the oil. From the time you turn over the engine after the oil change, you are causing engine wear due to particulates.

As for the concept of "never changing the oil" (with a bypass), AFAICT what the paradise garage tests shows is that the additives are replenished by adding oil at the filter change. Likewise the W rating is pushed back towards it's starting point by each oil addition.

What is NOT addressed are the benefits of the bypass filter, simply because he doesn't use a bypass filter. Thus his solids build up over the course of the test.

But that is precisely the point of the bypass, ANY good bypass, but even more so the TP bypass. The particle size filtered out is dramatically enhanced thus the solids should remain dramatically lower. Add to that the fact that (with the TP bypass) you take out 20% of the oil (assuming a 5 qt fill) and replace that 20% with brand new oil every 3k miles. Thus whatever solids remain and build up are being diluted every 3k miles.

To my way of thinking this would allow essentially a "changeless" system. You can think of it as never changing your oil, or as changing 20% every 3K miles, either way the results are the same, just change the TP roll and add a quart every 3K miles.

I would never attempt this without an oil analysis every so often, probably every 9k - 12k miles at least until I had established that in fact the oil remains "clinicaly clean" forever.

So anyone on this forum has already decided that the bypass is something they are interested in, and the initial cost is in the equation already, you can't "factor it in" to any comparison.

Eliminate that and you are left with a simple "X qts of dino vs X qts of synth". That is roughly a 4 to 1 factor. There is simply no getting around that ratio.

FOR ME, I am willing to pay 4x more for the low temp flow (living in the northeast), the supposed "startup factor" where the synth clings to parts better leaving better protection at those times when the engine is starting up. I also have to believe that there are areas inside the engine where the high temp characteristics of synth comes into play.

Thus $4 + 50c for some tp is perfectably acceptable every 3k miles. That is .15 penny per mile.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

FOR ME, I am willing to pay 4x more for the low temp flow (living in the northeast), the supposed "startup factor" where the synth clings to parts better leaving better protection at those times when the engine is starting up.

---

Zactly! You've determined that your service duty justifies the expense of the synthetic. So for YOU it's a compound decision. You ARE going to use synthetics and you ARE going to use a tp filter.

The expense factor is null and void. You're achieving the cheapest way to afford that ultra high level of protection.


I would also ask you what kinda of mileage you do a year. This is a BIG factor in costs.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for fine filtration. I've just determined that it really doesn't pay with a synth. The real appeal with a dino is that a dino typically can not ever reach the mileage limit that a synth can in terms of "normal use". You would be hard pressed to find any dino user reaching 6k for an OCI. The bypass will probably allow the dino user (assuming the oil selection is appropriate for the engine) to have the "never ending sump. The conflict you run into in synths is that although the tp is shot ..the oil isn't even breaking a sweat at that stage of use ..yet you're replacing it for the sake of new media The media life is as limited in life as it was in its first conceptual creation (decades ago)...oil OTOH, is not.

Now if the media life were magically altered to match the typical life expectancy of synths ..then it would make a lot more sense ..a match made in heaven. TP can't do that.

Again, I'm into fine filtration ..but a 3k service interval isn't something I'm interested in. Given the physical restraints on tp filtration, I can't get the service interval I desire ..therefore I compromise and use less fine filtration over a mileage span more matched to synth oil's life expectancy.

If space permitted ...I'd have something like an Amsoil BE-90 as a prefilter to a Motor Guard. Then the tp would probably last 6-8k without being subjected to anything over 3um.

This is in no way a slam against your choice of tp or oil in your lubrication distractions. This will serve your engine with the finest of filtration and lubrication at any practical cost.

That cost is just too high for me to justify given my research and experience.

In the end ..odds say...both of us will have engines that are fully functional to a very high degree long after the rest of the vehicle has disintegrated in the junkyard. We'll get tired of other failures on the vehicle (water pumps, timing belts/chains, front-ends, etc.)

 

[Gary Allan]

Just to give you an idea of how far I'll go to get fine filtration w/o frequent service intervals..

So far it's done a spectacular job ..and doesn't show any signs of plugging yet. Replacement elements are about $10 +/-. I believe that the media is 1um nominal and 5um absolute.

 

[John W. Colby]

LOL, are you serious, is this yours? What are the filter elements? Looks like a cool setup, whatever it is.

 

[slalom44]

Gary: Please tell us what you've got! It looks pretty impressive and knowing your knowledge of bypass filtration it has to be top notch.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, I don't know how much I know about bypass filtration ...but I do like to build better (and at times bigger) mouse traps

Here's the post and a little smaller

 

[John W. Colby]

Thanks Gary, that was a good thread.

 

[slalom44]

I don't know how I missed reading that one. Very Interesting. Thanks, Gary.

Back on topic: From what I've seen on UOAs, cellulose bypass filters remove moisture, thus preventing the TBN from dropping to nothing. So unless you're operating your engine at the extremes (Arctic, Turbo, racing, very high temps, etc.), I don't see the need.

OTOH, if you're putting a bypass filter on your car in the first place, you're obsessed with giving your car the best care, and using synthetic goes along with that logic. If I'm going to extend my OCIs even with a bypass, I'm going to spend the extra $$.

 

[mjo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
The alternative with tp would have been 4 quarts of make up ..or 2/3 of my sump. in two more tp changes ..I would have been at a full swap over 18k. Not nearly enough to justify it for longevity when compared to the inherent longevity of the oil by itself.

Assuming that there was no degradation in the oil using tp (TBN, shear, thickening, fuel, moisture, etc.) cost for 12k miles in operating expenses =

---

With tighter rolls of TP and BP lines that do not leak you can reduce the 1q oil requirement during TP changes. My lines do not leak and I only need slightly more than half a quart for topping off.

As for your second comment I think TBN and moisture are not as important when using a Bypass filter compared with not using BP filter for a couple reasons. TBN is not as important because very little acid forms in the oil as the TP roll absorbs water. Because the TP absorbs water, moisture is not an issue either.

I don't think that fuel is much of a problem because engine heat tends to evaporate fuel - unless you have mechanical problems such as leaky fuel injectors.

BTW, don't shear and thickening balance each other out

?

 

[John W. Colby]

LOL. Yea, I am specifying FOR ME. There are always several ways to look at anything. If the element in an CWS (Cotton Wound String) or compressed cellulose disk costs $25 (and I am just grabbing a number out of the air since I haven't priced them), and synth costs $4.00 / quart, and TP costs 50c / roll .... - then the total cost of consumables is less with TP but the aggravation is higher.

I.E. with the CWS filter you change the filter less often (aggravation), absolutely true, however you also have to do an actual oil change, i.e. drain the pan and add all new oil every X miles.

The COST of the total system in consumables is actually less for the TP. 5 quarts of oil plus 5 rolls of TP = $22.50 / 15k miles vs 5 quarts of oil plus $25 for the filter = $45 for the CWS filter / 15K miles.

If you were to change the CWS filter every 25k miles then the cost goes to 8 quarts + 8 rolls of TP or $36 / 25K miles vs the same $45 for the CWS.

I have NOT completely made up my mind on one vs the other for my personal use. I would dearly love to see a few

 

[John W. Colby]

Sorry, I was previewing my post and hit add reply instead.

I would like to see a few oil analyses for the CWS or compressed cellulose filters after 6k, 12k, 18k and 24k miles.

I would much prefer the once per 18k oil change to an every 3k filter change. My usage is about 15-20k per year per vehicle (I have two), which equates to a TP change every 6 weeks or so vs an oil change every 9 months. That's a BIG difference. If the TP change were convienent (under the hood, easily done) then I would go that route. If I have to get on my back under the vehicle in the driveway, I would go with the CWS type of filter and let the mechanic do it.

It appears that for my Chevy Venture van, the bypass filter is going to be under the van somewhere, and a CWS bypass with a long change interval will be the answer. OTOH it looks like I can easily get the bypass filter under the hood for my Ford Escort wagon so I would be more inclined to do the TP filter for that vehicle.

Which just goes to show what goes into personal decision making.

For me though, the cost of the oil, and even the oil and the filter is simply a non-issue. For the Chevy Venture I pay $300 / month to the bank, $50 / month to the insurance company, $100 or more / month to the gasoline company... $5400 PER YEAR and $24 (or even $45) to the oil change PER YEAR (assuming a bypass, either scenario). If I am paying that much money to purchase, insure and feed my vehicle, the pittance I pay for the bypass and oil is just VERY cheap insurance aimed at getting more life from the vehicle. Sure, I could change to dino and save a few pennies more but really...

 

[Gary Allan]

Again ..a good philosophy/practice. We just look at things from different angles. I was dedicated to synthetics and extended drains for maximum utility in my new(er) vehicles (the big unit that you see there is on my Caravan w/ 166k miles btw- and it uses dino). I went about designing a fitration system that would allow me max drains without any "service". That led me to the Amsoil setup on my wife's jeep. Excellent UOAs with it over 12.5k (I could have probably gone 1 year (18k) without any degradation in performance.

For me "routine" maintenance is a chore. I'd rather build a bullet proof system that I couldn't neglect if I tried. Three core radiators, bigger sumps, high volume oil pumps, heat exchangers, thermostatically regulated auxillary coolers, etc... . Your train of thought falls along the lines of you assuring that the existing system remains bullet proof in your routine.

This is probably due to my experience in industrial waste treatment/process control. Down time for maintenance and repair was simply wasted time. Given our mandated tasks ..we were literally down to the hour in annual operating demands. It made sense to just configure things to never need your attention. If we needed a moisture seperator for our pneumatic actuators ...we got one that was capable of handling 300% of the demand. If 304 SS failed in 6 months of operation ..we used 316 SS or Monell. If our condensors calcified with well water ...we used soft water to assure that they never would.

Everything was designed around the idea that it all came down to scheduled shut downs (perhaps twice a year) so that there was nothing to do that would take the unit out of service unless other supporting systems were also scheduled for shut down (boilers, water/air service, etc.).

That is, it reduced everything to "watching the machine do its job". It's more of marvelling over the workings of the machine ..then it is paying tribute to it on a continual basis.

What can I say

I'm lazy

 

[greencrew]

I figure with the saving in oil from using a by-pass I can run any oil I want, regardless of cost. I'm just committed to that oil for an extended durration.

 

[therion]

Well guys i thought i'll let you know my bypass filter experience so far with Ralphs Motor Guard. I change the element every 2,000 miles with a quart of Amsoil HDD 5w30. I eventually changed the oil at 25,000 miles into and it came out pretty black?? The bypass filter does help but it didnt completely make my oil stay clean "forever" by any means. I have not taken an UOA yet becuase im not sure where to grab the oil from. Can i take it from the Full Flow filter when i change it? or will it not be accurate. The oil does darken on the dipstick after a couple thousand miles too. Please tell me if im doing something wrong.

 

[deepsquat]

don't take the sample from the filter...take it from out of the pan about 2-3 secound after you pull the plug...at that poin plac the bottle under the stream ....If you take it from the filter you silicon and other readings will be wayyyyyyy high