OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: Vikas
Haven't we been told that varnish in itself is harmless?
Depends on where it forms.
Haven't we been told that varnish in itself is harmless?
Depends on where it forms.
What makes fresh oil dirty under 1500 miles
- Thread starter dgsbikes
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Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
This is a 2006 Honda Ody with VCM. Has 80K miles on it. Well maintained and serviced. PU 5w20 with OLM + 1k OCIs generally (comes out to about 6K to 7K on this van
This is the reason. Under the covers and in the VCM system its probably getting nasty. 6-7K is possibly not as well maintained as you think on this engine.
Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
Maybe it was just the PCV as it was a bit sticky and didn't rattle enough.
This is a sure sign that all is not going well with these engines. Change the oil more often, 5K.
Pablo and i posted close to each other. I must have read his mind.
Seriously 80K is about the time for some of these 3.5 iVETC engines have a problem you don't need to get into.
I have seen this many times and posted pics of engines at these miles that had 7500 mile synthetic OCI.
If you get a VSA and CEL light along with running on 3 cylinders post back before taking it to a dealer.
There are a few things you can try to clear it up before tearing into it.
Good advice. The only engine I have ever owned that had visible varnish was the 3.5 in our 2008 Accord. I would reduce the drain interval to 5k.
Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
This is a 2006 Honda Ody with VCM. Has 80K miles on it. Well maintained and serviced. PU 5w20 with OLM + 1k OCIs generally (comes out to about 6K to 7K on this van
This is the reason. Under the covers and in the VCM system its probably getting nasty. 6-7K is possibly not as well maintained as you think on this engine.
Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
Maybe it was just the PCV as it was a bit sticky and didn't rattle enough.
This is a sure sign that all is not going well with these engines. Change the oil more often, 5K.
Pablo and i posted close to each other. I must have read his mind.
Seriously 80K is about the time for some of these 3.5 iVETC engines have a problem you don't need to get into.
I have seen this many times and posted pics of engines at these miles that had 7500 mile synthetic OCI.
If you get a VSA and CEL light along with running on 3 cylinders post back before taking it to a dealer.
There are a few things you can try to clear it up before tearing into it.
Good advice. The only engine I have ever owned that had visible varnish was the 3.5 in our 2008 Accord. I would reduce the drain interval to 5k.
For what it's worth you said you used various other oils in it before and then changed to PU. Well I did this in a car I used to own. Even though it had always had good name brand synthetic in it before and always had the oil come out clean after 7,500 miles when I put in the PU (SM)it went black in like 300 miles. The car had never had oil come out any darker than maple syrup after 7,500 miles. I guess that extreme amount of detergents does find dirt in there somewhere left behind by other oils. Since your engine is known to have internal issues then it is probably just doing it's job, I wouldn't worry about it and maybe change it at 80% as you mentioned. PU is a very good oil for the money.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Haven't we been told that varnish in itself is harmless?
Depends on where it forms.
Thats a fact! If enough of it gets in the VCM, VVT systems, hydraulic tensioners etc it sure isn't harmless.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Haven't we been told that varnish in itself is harmless?
Depends on where it forms.
Thats a fact! If enough of it gets in the VCM, VVT systems, hydraulic tensioners etc it sure isn't harmless.
Ok, Thanks everyone!
Just changed the oil, filter & ATF.
It now has VSP 5w-30SM and PU 5w-20SM in 85/15 ratio. This was the last of the VSP SM (2008/9 I think) stock I had. It was sealed by an aluminum foil to the can. So,I think it will be good for short OCI of 4K or so. I also found out that I have 4 more P1's left from 2008. So I decided to go ahead and use the P1 instead of the Napa gold that I was thinking. No point in letting the P1s sit and age further. Might as well use them up with the shorter OCIs.
The current gas in the tank has 2 bottles of 16oz Pro-Gard with Techron to 18 Gallons. It's got another 12 gallons to burn. I will change the PCV valve once the van gets the next fresh gas fill. The current PCV is nice and clean though (was cleaned a few hundred miles back and now rattles well).
I may end up with a 1200 mile road trip over a few days next week. If so, that should help the oil do its job much more quickly there is anything left in there to clean from the get go!
I forgot to mention a couple of things earlier:
* A peek through the oil fill hole shows a spotless valvetrain top (although I perfectly understand that it is not necessarily a true indication of what's in the chambers)
* Vehicle also smogged excellent recently (before the PCV cleanup).
I will keep this OCI short with hopefully much more extended periods of Op temps. Subsequently with the next one, I will start with a 5-6K or 85% OLM (whichever is shorter) target OCI's and fine tune from there on. As long as it doesn't lose any oil (none used until 68K miles, then 1qt over the previous 7-8k OCI, 0.5qt over this 5k OCI), over this next OCI, I will be happy!
P.S. I really wanted to do a Mobil 0w-40 and 0w-20 EP 40/60 or so mix, but couldn't resist stocking up 10 jugs PU (4 5w-30 and 6 5w-20) at the current Walmart price ($25.17 + CA tax) minus the $20 FRN per jug bringing it to about $7 per a 5qt Jug. I will be using a mix of the 5w-20/30 grades in a 60/40 mix which should get me a slightly higher HT/HS than the 5w-20 alone.
I also have a case of Napa Syn 0w-20 recent stock that I picked up when they had the sale sometime last year. I may alternate between PU and the Napa Syn.
Just changed the oil, filter & ATF.
It now has VSP 5w-30SM and PU 5w-20SM in 85/15 ratio. This was the last of the VSP SM (2008/9 I think) stock I had. It was sealed by an aluminum foil to the can. So,I think it will be good for short OCI of 4K or so. I also found out that I have 4 more P1's left from 2008. So I decided to go ahead and use the P1 instead of the Napa gold that I was thinking. No point in letting the P1s sit and age further. Might as well use them up with the shorter OCIs.
The current gas in the tank has 2 bottles of 16oz Pro-Gard with Techron to 18 Gallons. It's got another 12 gallons to burn. I will change the PCV valve once the van gets the next fresh gas fill. The current PCV is nice and clean though (was cleaned a few hundred miles back and now rattles well).
I may end up with a 1200 mile road trip over a few days next week. If so, that should help the oil do its job much more quickly there is anything left in there to clean from the get go!
I forgot to mention a couple of things earlier:
* A peek through the oil fill hole shows a spotless valvetrain top (although I perfectly understand that it is not necessarily a true indication of what's in the chambers)
* Vehicle also smogged excellent recently (before the PCV cleanup).
I will keep this OCI short with hopefully much more extended periods of Op temps. Subsequently with the next one, I will start with a 5-6K or 85% OLM (whichever is shorter) target OCI's and fine tune from there on. As long as it doesn't lose any oil (none used until 68K miles, then 1qt over the previous 7-8k OCI, 0.5qt over this 5k OCI), over this next OCI, I will be happy!
P.S. I really wanted to do a Mobil 0w-40 and 0w-20 EP 40/60 or so mix, but couldn't resist stocking up 10 jugs PU (4 5w-30 and 6 5w-20) at the current Walmart price ($25.17 + CA tax) minus the $20 FRN per jug bringing it to about $7 per a 5qt Jug. I will be using a mix of the 5w-20/30 grades in a 60/40 mix which should get me a slightly higher HT/HS than the 5w-20 alone.
I also have a case of Napa Syn 0w-20 recent stock that I picked up when they had the sale sometime last year. I may alternate between PU and the Napa Syn.
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WOW the oil is dirty. Time to tear down the engine before it falls. All seriousness I bought used cars all my life and most were full of [censored] in engine. I changed oil cranked up then black on many of them. Wife wanted a Buick V6 that was beautiful outside and looking in cap noticed all this sludge so I negotiated a steal of deal. Change oil regular intervals and black from day one then blew head when hose blew in middle of no where so I put salt water in radiator to make it home. Thank god for lakes in Louisiana. Pulled down and sludge was gone but you could see how bad it was. Oh I put 50k on it. Point to this is black oil don't mean problem and running good oil at good interval will get you lots of miles.
OP:
UOA
UOA
I've heard Valvoline's Sodium based add-pack conflicts with everyone else's, but then again all API oils are supposed to be miscible, so I'm not sure how much of a problem mixing PU and VSP would be.
As previously stated, any time you change oil brands or types you can get a dramatic cleaning effect. Also dark oil doesn't necessarily mean dirty oil. A UOA may or may not tell you something, but you'll never know if it could unless you try it.
As previously stated, any time you change oil brands or types you can get a dramatic cleaning effect. Also dark oil doesn't necessarily mean dirty oil. A UOA may or may not tell you something, but you'll never know if it could unless you try it.
Originally Posted By: tiger862
WOW the oil is dirty. Time to tear down the engine before it falls. All seriousness I bought used cars all my life and most were full of [censored] in engine. I changed oil cranked up then black on many of them. Wife wanted a Buick V6 that was beautiful outside and looking in cap noticed all this sludge so I negotiated a steal of deal. Change oil regular intervals and black from day one then blew head when hose blew in middle of no where so I put salt water in radiator to make it home. Thank god for lakes in Louisiana. Pulled down and sludge was gone but you could see how bad it was. Oh I put 50k on it. Point to this is black oil don't mean problem and running good oil at good interval will get you lots of miles.
It is not a case of..
Originally Posted By: tiger862
WOW the oil is dirty. Time to tear down the engine before it falls.
What it is, is a 6 cyl engine that turns off one whole bank and when driven under certin conditions will overheat the oil and form deposits and heavy varnish that finds its way into a sophisticated and sensitive VCM control system.
When it does it can cost thousands of dollars to repair. Like they say this isn't your wifes old Buick.
OCI on these engines is very difficult to calculate, the OLM is pretty much worthless and a UOA does not detect the varnish that is being formed.
Under ideal condition many have no issues whatsoever. On the other hand some are toasting the synthetic oil at much lower than OLM intervals.
80K is when a lot of the one that will have a problem begin to show it, a plugged PVC is one of the first signs.
While oil color may not be a indication of its serviceability when it gets dirty very quickly in a gasoline engine like this it IMHO is a good indicator that it is cleaning up deposits.
Which are as you say are in most cases harmless just not in these and a couple of other engines.
The trick is knowing the difference.
WOW the oil is dirty. Time to tear down the engine before it falls. All seriousness I bought used cars all my life and most were full of [censored] in engine. I changed oil cranked up then black on many of them. Wife wanted a Buick V6 that was beautiful outside and looking in cap noticed all this sludge so I negotiated a steal of deal. Change oil regular intervals and black from day one then blew head when hose blew in middle of no where so I put salt water in radiator to make it home. Thank god for lakes in Louisiana. Pulled down and sludge was gone but you could see how bad it was. Oh I put 50k on it. Point to this is black oil don't mean problem and running good oil at good interval will get you lots of miles.
It is not a case of..
Originally Posted By: tiger862
WOW the oil is dirty. Time to tear down the engine before it falls.
What it is, is a 6 cyl engine that turns off one whole bank and when driven under certin conditions will overheat the oil and form deposits and heavy varnish that finds its way into a sophisticated and sensitive VCM control system.
When it does it can cost thousands of dollars to repair. Like they say this isn't your wifes old Buick.
OCI on these engines is very difficult to calculate, the OLM is pretty much worthless and a UOA does not detect the varnish that is being formed.
Under ideal condition many have no issues whatsoever. On the other hand some are toasting the synthetic oil at much lower than OLM intervals.
80K is when a lot of the one that will have a problem begin to show it, a plugged PVC is one of the first signs.
While oil color may not be a indication of its serviceability when it gets dirty very quickly in a gasoline engine like this it IMHO is a good indicator that it is cleaning up deposits.
Which are as you say are in most cases harmless just not in these and a couple of other engines.
The trick is knowing the difference.
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