If you have 30 rounds of .223 and you manage to put 1/3 of those rounds into a bear then yes it will likely kill the bear. Most likely though if you see a bear in the wild it will turn away and leave you alone. I carry my full size 9mm with 15 rounds of fmj when I am in the Appalachian mountains every summer just in case. I REALLY hope I never have to use it because I would need a really good shot to stop a bear. But it is better than nothing.
What is the best value AR15 style rifle (.223/556)
- Thread starter Doog
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Well, it would be better than nothing I was thinking. From the concensus out there it's amazing how fast these bears can charge, and how little distance there is in these encounters; over 30 ft/s and encounters being generally under 50 ft with 30 ft common.
Unless it was charging, a loud warning shot from any firearm would greatly increase ones chances, I would think.
After that, it would no doubt be scary and things could go down on the time scale of about 1 second. (and I would want to save that last quarter second to dodge rather than shoot.)
It would be nice if they integrated an explosive charge (for deafening sound bang) into bear mace kits. If there was such a thing (or, if the bear was charging at 30 ft/s at 30ft, and a warning shot was irrelevant), then I wonder which device (ar or bear mace) people would pick if they had to choose.
Unless it was charging, a loud warning shot from any firearm would greatly increase ones chances, I would think.
After that, it would no doubt be scary and things could go down on the time scale of about 1 second. (and I would want to save that last quarter second to dodge rather than shoot.)
It would be nice if they integrated an explosive charge (for deafening sound bang) into bear mace kits. If there was such a thing (or, if the bear was charging at 30 ft/s at 30ft, and a warning shot was irrelevant), then I wonder which device (ar or bear mace) people would pick if they had to choose.
dnewton3
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How this got sidetracked is a bit amusing, but I must confess I want to play along!
Would I ever hunt a bear with 5.56/.223? No - not a good choice by any means. Hunting is about trying to take an animal in as humane a manner as possible, assuring a quick kill and as little damage to the meat as possible. That round is simply too small and lacks the overall energy package to achieve the goal. Unless you get a million-to-one brain stem shot, one round is not going to be effective by any means.
However, if I were in the woods and at imminent attack by a bear (black or brown), then I'm going to pick up whatever I have to defend myself/others. While not optimum, it's better than a stick. This round will likely kill a bear IF you can get enough rounds into it. But it will be an ugly, slow death and it is not likely to cause an immediate cessation of the hostile onslaught. If I can get 15-30 rounds into it, it will probably die a few days later. And during the attack, it's a pot-luck chance if I can dissuade it from mauling me to death; perhaps it will turn-tail or perhaps those skeeter-rounds will just tick it off a bit more ... Ever hear the term "death of a thousand stings"? That is how this might apply. I'd like to think the noise would scare it off. But if it comes down to actually shooting it, I'm going to have to put as many rounds as possible into the beast in hopes of having it bleed out before it shreds me. I Might get lucky; or I might drop a notch on the food chain. Too close to call.
Would I ever hunt a bear with 5.56/.223? No - not a good choice by any means. Hunting is about trying to take an animal in as humane a manner as possible, assuring a quick kill and as little damage to the meat as possible. That round is simply too small and lacks the overall energy package to achieve the goal. Unless you get a million-to-one brain stem shot, one round is not going to be effective by any means.
However, if I were in the woods and at imminent attack by a bear (black or brown), then I'm going to pick up whatever I have to defend myself/others. While not optimum, it's better than a stick. This round will likely kill a bear IF you can get enough rounds into it. But it will be an ugly, slow death and it is not likely to cause an immediate cessation of the hostile onslaught. If I can get 15-30 rounds into it, it will probably die a few days later. And during the attack, it's a pot-luck chance if I can dissuade it from mauling me to death; perhaps it will turn-tail or perhaps those skeeter-rounds will just tick it off a bit more ... Ever hear the term "death of a thousand stings"? That is how this might apply. I'd like to think the noise would scare it off. But if it comes down to actually shooting it, I'm going to have to put as many rounds as possible into the beast in hopes of having it bleed out before it shreds me. I Might get lucky; or I might drop a notch on the food chain. Too close to call.
Check this out.....regarding shooting a bear...the guy had a Ruger Alaskan 454 Casull
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/man-kills-charging-bear-with-454-casull/
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/man-kills-charging-bear-with-454-casull/
Originally Posted By: Doog
I would never consider shooting a bear with anything under 44cal. Probably a .444 or a 45-70 would be what I might try. You can shoot a bear in the head and blind him and he will track you by scent.
It is not just about the size of the bullet, it is the penetration that is key, especially on Grizzlies. A 35 Whelen or 375 H&H will put a bear down as good or better than a 45-70. Those were designed to take large game and are well under the 44 cal family in diameter.
There was an incident in Alaska where a Grizzly/Polar bear hybrid wandered into town and was aggressive. A local law enforcement officer was able to put it down with an old Colt A1...but it took the whole magazine to do it. Unless you get off a headshot(hard to do with adrenaline going and a possibly charging bear), you will need to be able to penetrate to the other vital organs.
I would never consider shooting a bear with anything under 44cal. Probably a .444 or a 45-70 would be what I might try. You can shoot a bear in the head and blind him and he will track you by scent.
It is not just about the size of the bullet, it is the penetration that is key, especially on Grizzlies. A 35 Whelen or 375 H&H will put a bear down as good or better than a 45-70. Those were designed to take large game and are well under the 44 cal family in diameter.
There was an incident in Alaska where a Grizzly/Polar bear hybrid wandered into town and was aggressive. A local law enforcement officer was able to put it down with an old Colt A1...but it took the whole magazine to do it. Unless you get off a headshot(hard to do with adrenaline going and a possibly charging bear), you will need to be able to penetrate to the other vital organs.
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Originally Posted By: Doog
Check this out.....regarding shooting a bear...the guy had a Ruger Alaskan 454 Casull
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/man-kills-charging-bear-with-454-casull/
Yep...I used to own a handgun that fired .454 Casull. It's a astoundingly powerful cartridge.
If I was living in Alaska and frequenting the woods, I would definitely want something like that.
Check this out.....regarding shooting a bear...the guy had a Ruger Alaskan 454 Casull
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/man-kills-charging-bear-with-454-casull/
Yep...I used to own a handgun that fired .454 Casull. It's a astoundingly powerful cartridge.
If I was living in Alaska and frequenting the woods, I would definitely want something like that.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: Doog
I would never consider shooting a bear with anything under 44cal. Probably a .444 or a 45-70 would be what I might try. You can shoot a bear in the head and blind him and he will track you by scent.
It is not just about the size of the bullet, it is the penetration that is key, especially on Grizzlies. A 35 Whelen or 375 H&H will put a bear down as good or better than a 45-70. Those were designed to take large game and are well under the 44 cal family in diameter.
There was an incident in Alaska where a Grizzly/Polar bear hybrid wandered into town and was aggressive. A local law enforcement officer was able to put it down with an old Colt A1...but it took the whole magazine to do it. Unless you get off a headshot(hard to do with adrenaline going and a possibly charging bear), you will need to be able to penetrate to the other vital organs.
True. A .338LM would also be effective against bear, as is I believe 30-06.
Originally Posted By: Doog
I would never consider shooting a bear with anything under 44cal. Probably a .444 or a 45-70 would be what I might try. You can shoot a bear in the head and blind him and he will track you by scent.
It is not just about the size of the bullet, it is the penetration that is key, especially on Grizzlies. A 35 Whelen or 375 H&H will put a bear down as good or better than a 45-70. Those were designed to take large game and are well under the 44 cal family in diameter.
There was an incident in Alaska where a Grizzly/Polar bear hybrid wandered into town and was aggressive. A local law enforcement officer was able to put it down with an old Colt A1...but it took the whole magazine to do it. Unless you get off a headshot(hard to do with adrenaline going and a possibly charging bear), you will need to be able to penetrate to the other vital organs.
True. A .338LM would also be effective against bear, as is I believe 30-06.
OVERKILL
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Taken with a .338 Remington Ultra Mag apparently.
Originally Posted By: Doog
Am thinking of getting a Ruger ranch rifle but noticed a few AR 15 styles that were close in price. Which are the better manufacturers that are still priced under $1000? I know very little about these rifles so some advice would be greatly appreciated.
The Colt models are seriously astronomical in price.
Back to the topic at hand (bear dude should have started his own thread)
Ruger Ranch rifles (mini 14) are fantastic weapons. They are handy, reliable, 3-4 MOA weapons. Unfortunately, they are getting expensive, up into the $700 territory. You can get a budget AR for less than $500 now a days.
If you want to purchase a complete rifle, it's hard to go wrong with the Smith & Wesson Sport ($570 at aimsurplus.com) or Ruger AR-556 ($600ish) The Ruger is a better buy because it has a better barrel (1/8 twist hammer forged), and comes with the forward assist and dust cover that the Sport lacks.
Spikes Tactical sells reliable stuff in the $800 range. Every bit as good as Colt from my experience.
Palmetto State Armory is the value leader in this segment. If you buy one of their premium uppers it will have a top quality FN barrel. They also sell hammer forged FN barrels on many of their uppers. They used to sell full carbines but now it seems they only sell kits, complete uppers, and complete lowers. You can buy a complete lower and complete upper and slap them together in about 3 seconds. Going this route will get you the highest quality gun for the least amount of money spent.
As far as Colt being astronomical in price, you can get a brand new Colt lightweight carbine from PSA for $799 right now. This is a FANTASTIC DEAL and you should be buying it right now before they sell out.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/colt-ar-15-5-56nato-16-carbine-pencil-barrel.html
Oh, and if you are thinking about ordering a Colt, NOW is the time. Lots of talk of them possibly going bankrupt in the next 6-18 months. You think Colt is expensive now, wait until after they go out of business and you can't get a new one any more!! They will become collector items and prices will rise, mark my words.
Am thinking of getting a Ruger ranch rifle but noticed a few AR 15 styles that were close in price. Which are the better manufacturers that are still priced under $1000? I know very little about these rifles so some advice would be greatly appreciated.
The Colt models are seriously astronomical in price.
Back to the topic at hand (bear dude should have started his own thread)
Ruger Ranch rifles (mini 14) are fantastic weapons. They are handy, reliable, 3-4 MOA weapons. Unfortunately, they are getting expensive, up into the $700 territory. You can get a budget AR for less than $500 now a days.
If you want to purchase a complete rifle, it's hard to go wrong with the Smith & Wesson Sport ($570 at aimsurplus.com) or Ruger AR-556 ($600ish) The Ruger is a better buy because it has a better barrel (1/8 twist hammer forged), and comes with the forward assist and dust cover that the Sport lacks.
Spikes Tactical sells reliable stuff in the $800 range. Every bit as good as Colt from my experience.
Palmetto State Armory is the value leader in this segment. If you buy one of their premium uppers it will have a top quality FN barrel. They also sell hammer forged FN barrels on many of their uppers. They used to sell full carbines but now it seems they only sell kits, complete uppers, and complete lowers. You can buy a complete lower and complete upper and slap them together in about 3 seconds. Going this route will get you the highest quality gun for the least amount of money spent.
As far as Colt being astronomical in price, you can get a brand new Colt lightweight carbine from PSA for $799 right now. This is a FANTASTIC DEAL and you should be buying it right now before they sell out.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/colt-ar-15-5-56nato-16-carbine-pencil-barrel.html
Oh, and if you are thinking about ordering a Colt, NOW is the time. Lots of talk of them possibly going bankrupt in the next 6-18 months. You think Colt is expensive now, wait until after they go out of business and you can't get a new one any more!! They will become collector items and prices will rise, mark my words.
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Oh, and if you are thinking about ordering a Colt, NOW is the time. Lots of talk of them possibly going bankrupt
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/11/foghorn/colt-teetering-brink-bankrupcy/
Oh, and if you are thinking about ordering a Colt, NOW is the time. Lots of talk of them possibly going bankrupt
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/11/foghorn/colt-teetering-brink-bankrupcy/
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Oh, and if you are thinking about ordering a Colt, NOW is the time. Lots of talk of them possibly going bankrupt
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/11/foghorn/colt-teetering-brink-bankrupcy/
They will go Chapter 11 and default on their debt but will absolutely be refinanced and bought out by another venture capital firm or competitor. Way too much value in their brand name.
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Oh, and if you are thinking about ordering a Colt, NOW is the time. Lots of talk of them possibly going bankrupt
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/11/foghorn/colt-teetering-brink-bankrupcy/
They will go Chapter 11 and default on their debt but will absolutely be refinanced and bought out by another venture capital firm or competitor. Way too much value in their brand name.
Colt has been in financial trouble for over 20 years...sure it is an iconic name, but it sure seems there is not too much financial value in the brand, just sentimental.
It would take a large and well funded firm to take them over to turn them around. First I think they would need to get out of their ultra conservative rut. Colt has not produced a real innovative product in house since the swing out cylinder for revolvers in the 19th century. They bought the 1911 from Browning, they bought the AR15 from Armalite. And they try to survive on both of those designs in a market that is flooded with competitors.
It would take a large and well funded firm to take them over to turn them around. First I think they would need to get out of their ultra conservative rut. Colt has not produced a real innovative product in house since the swing out cylinder for revolvers in the 19th century. They bought the 1911 from Browning, they bought the AR15 from Armalite. And they try to survive on both of those designs in a market that is flooded with competitors.
Shoot the bear from the top of a hill with a .5 bmg and you can stroll through the woods wit no more than a pocket knife
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Originally Posted By: Doog
Am thinking of getting a Ruger ranch rifle but noticed a few AR 15 styles that were close in price. Which are the better manufacturers that are still priced under $1000? I know very little about these rifles so some advice wuld be greatly appreciated.
The Colt models are seriously astronomical in price.
PSA i believe, they used the barrel from FN, which is the current US army rifle supplier!
Am thinking of getting a Ruger ranch rifle but noticed a few AR 15 styles that were close in price. Which are the better manufacturers that are still priced under $1000? I know very little about these rifles so some advice wuld be greatly appreciated.
The Colt models are seriously astronomical in price.
PSA i believe, they used the barrel from FN, which is the current US army rifle supplier!
I doubt that even if you had a full auto rifle, that an angry/hungry bear would be deterred barring a lucky hit through the eye or nose. All military based "Modern Sporting Rifles" (HA,now if you need an illustration of an oxymoron, there you go) are designed to kill humans; nothing else. The size of the cartridge is dictated by the desired terminal effects, cost, reliability, and ballistics.
Killing animals the size of a bear cleanly up to 200 yards away requires ammunition that will penetrate more than 3 times the thickness of the average human, and a LOT more kinetic energy to penetrate hair, hide, bone, muscle, and THEN damage internal organs.
At a bare minimum, look at a lever action rifle in 358 Winchester or 45-70. Bolt action is too slow for a follow up shot.
If you don't want to carry a rifle, then look to a Ruger Alaskan revolver in 454 Casull. Check YOu Tube, they have plenty of videos on them.
Killing animals the size of a bear cleanly up to 200 yards away requires ammunition that will penetrate more than 3 times the thickness of the average human, and a LOT more kinetic energy to penetrate hair, hide, bone, muscle, and THEN damage internal organs.
At a bare minimum, look at a lever action rifle in 358 Winchester or 45-70. Bolt action is too slow for a follow up shot.
If you don't want to carry a rifle, then look to a Ruger Alaskan revolver in 454 Casull. Check YOu Tube, they have plenty of videos on them.
Originally Posted By: 2cool
I doubt that even if you had a full auto rifle, that an angry/hungry bear would be deterred barring a lucky hit through the eye or nose. All military based "Modern Sporting Rifles" (HA,now if you need an illustration of an oxymoron, there you go) are designed to kill humans; nothing else. The size of the cartridge is dictated by the desired terminal effects, cost, reliability, and ballistics.
Killing animals the size of a bear cleanly up to 200 yards away requires ammunition that will penetrate more than 3 times the thickness of the average human, and a LOT more kinetic energy to penetrate hair, hide, bone, muscle, and THEN damage internal organs.
At a bare minimum, look at a lever action rifle in 358 Winchester or 45-70. Bolt action is too slow for a follow up shot.
If you don't want to carry a rifle, then look to a Ruger Alaskan revolver in 454 Casull. Check YOu Tube, they have plenty of videos on them.
You can fire a bolt action pretty darn fast if you practice and have the right rifle. If you dont believe that look up "The Mad Minute". One gent was able to hit a 12 inch place at 300 yards 28 times in one minute using iron sights and an SMLE rifle. That time included reloading the weapon at least 3 times.
I doubt that even if you had a full auto rifle, that an angry/hungry bear would be deterred barring a lucky hit through the eye or nose. All military based "Modern Sporting Rifles" (HA,now if you need an illustration of an oxymoron, there you go) are designed to kill humans; nothing else. The size of the cartridge is dictated by the desired terminal effects, cost, reliability, and ballistics.
Killing animals the size of a bear cleanly up to 200 yards away requires ammunition that will penetrate more than 3 times the thickness of the average human, and a LOT more kinetic energy to penetrate hair, hide, bone, muscle, and THEN damage internal organs.
At a bare minimum, look at a lever action rifle in 358 Winchester or 45-70. Bolt action is too slow for a follow up shot.
If you don't want to carry a rifle, then look to a Ruger Alaskan revolver in 454 Casull. Check YOu Tube, they have plenty of videos on them.
You can fire a bolt action pretty darn fast if you practice and have the right rifle. If you dont believe that look up "The Mad Minute". One gent was able to hit a 12 inch place at 300 yards 28 times in one minute using iron sights and an SMLE rifle. That time included reloading the weapon at least 3 times.
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Originally Posted By: minc
I just build my AR15 with parts from PSA. The barrel is great which actually made by FN with FN machine gun quality barrel. Other parts are good and low price.
BTW, Colt had lost military rifle contract to FN-USA.
Colt lost them because FN can make the same quality at a lower price. Colt is a small firm while FN is a giant in the industry. Which is kind of sad to see Colt struggle given its historical significance while others like S&W are booming.
I just build my AR15 with parts from PSA. The barrel is great which actually made by FN with FN machine gun quality barrel. Other parts are good and low price.
BTW, Colt had lost military rifle contract to FN-USA.
Colt lost them because FN can make the same quality at a lower price. Colt is a small firm while FN is a giant in the industry. Which is kind of sad to see Colt struggle given its historical significance while others like S&W are booming.
Originally Posted By: minc
I just build my AR15 with parts from PSA. The barrel is great which actually made by FN with FN machine gun quality barrel. Other parts are good and low price.
BTW, Colt had lost military rifle contract to FN-USA.
What parts would I have to order?
I just build my AR15 with parts from PSA. The barrel is great which actually made by FN with FN machine gun quality barrel. Other parts are good and low price.
BTW, Colt had lost military rifle contract to FN-USA.
What parts would I have to order?
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