What if "low tension ring" theory is all wrong?

[edyvw]

You keep changing the goalposts. Now were towing? What does that have to do with heat transfer in general?



So I just showed actual test data that this is untrue - that liquid / liquid coolers are not heaters. Same applies to liquid/liquid engine oil coolers.

I mentioned to you towing immediately when I was mentioning transmission in Sequoia. Now, I can’t help you with selective reading.
Also, it is not only towing. Transmission temperature in this case regularly go over 230f during normal operation, instead of 185f which was the case before they removed radiator.
Ok. I mean, I was expecting that in heat exchanger, exchange happens, but good to know. That is why I am not expert.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I mentioned to you towing immediately when I was mentioning transmission in Sequoia. Now, I can’t help you with selective reading.
Also, it is not only towing. Transmission temperature in this case regularly go over 230f during normal operation, instead of 185f which was the case before they removed radiator.
Ok. I mean, I was expecting that in heat exchanger, exchange happens, but good to know. That is why I am not expert.

OK, fair.

But what your calling a heat exchanger is also a cooler / works in both directions. Newtons law of cooling applies - always. So just because its not a big radiator thing in the grill doesn't mean its not cooling the oil. You can't look at one and know how well it works. You would need to have the thermal efficiency ratings, and most important the flow rate and coolant temperature. I can assure you the donut on VQ's works very well to cool the engine oil. If Toyota's don't then that is on them. Its not the technology.

My Toyota engine does not have an engine oil cooler at all. One of the many reasons I run 5W-30 not the recommended 0W-16

 

[edyvw]

OK, fair.

But what your calling a heat exchanger is also a cooler / works in both directions. Newtons law of cooling applies - always. So just because its not a big radiator thing in the grill doesn't mean its not cooling the oil. You can't look at one and know how well it works. You would need to have the thermal efficiency ratings, and most important the flow rate and coolant temperature. I can assure you the donut on VQ's works very well to cool the engine oil. If Toyota's don't then that is on them. Its not the technology.

My Toyota engine does not have an engine oil cooler at all. One of the many reasons I run 5W-30 not the recommended 0W-16

It works to certain point. I never said it doesn’t cool off at all. If coolant temperature is 190f and oil 240, of course coolant will keep that oil temperature in check to a certain point. On most cars that is enough and in most situations. BMW X5 E70 had liquid to liquid heat exchanger and was rated to tow 7,500lbs. Though, pretty big size. That same heat exchanger is not at all sufficient on same engines, smaller vehicles, on track for example. Air to liquid is what was coming on vehicles with performance package, liquid to liquid for lower tier models.
However, as I said earlier, puck is cheapest way to address emissions and mpg. You can kill two birds with one rock.

 

[SC Maintenance]

That same heat exchanger is not at all sufficient on same engines, smaller vehicles, on track for example.

That was my point. Just because BMW does it one way doesn't make it the only way to skin a cat. No one is taking Rav4 to the track.

 

[edyvw]

That was my point. Just because BMW does it one way doesn't make it the only way to skin a cat. No one is taking Rav4 to the track.

I never said RAV4 should have that. I am just giving you example which one is more effective.

 

[4wd]

It is efficient if right size, which they are not. No puck like one on RAV4 will do what 11row air to liquid will do. Put right size, well yeah, you can keep always coolant temperature and oil temperature same, regardless of what you do.
How big is that liquid to liquid cooler inside radiator? 2nd generation Tundra had that. Simple liquid to liquid coolers use both air and liquid to cool off. Not just liquid. And they are pretty sizable. So not available on many vehicles.
Air to liquid radiator like Hyden 679/689 actually cools better than liquid to liquid Tundra had until 2018. Which is why they are popular upgrade.

I just bought a Hayden for the Jeep and will run downstream of factory cooler … historically, have used TruCool most often - but in the last few years they must have added gold dust to the black paint - literally 2X the price …
Eventually I need to study ‘22 Tahoe ATF cooling - it’s far better than our ‘17 with the “better” tow package …

 

[edyvw]

I just bought a Hayden for the Jeep and will run downstream of factory cooler … historically, have used TruCool most often - but in the last few years they must have added gold dust to the black paint - literally 2X the price …
Eventually I need to study ‘22 Tahoe ATF cooling - it’s far better than our ‘17 with the “better” tow package …

Some guy built a frame for Tundra/Sequoia for Hayden 679 and 689. I got the thermostat, lines, and frame from him; I just need to order the cooler. Won't do it before summer anyway, when the weather gets better. I don't tow, but don't like the temperature over mountain passes or off-roading at this altitude. TFL did two tests with the Tundra that has only a puck; they managed to get the temperature to 260°F. Mine on hwy howers around 230°F.

 

[4wd]

Some guy built a frame for Tundra/Sequoia for Hayden 679 and 689. I got the thermostat, lines, and frame from him; I just need to order the cooler. Won't do it before summer anyway, when the weather gets better. I don't tow, but don't like the temperature over mountain passes or off-roading at this altitude. TFL did two tests with the Tundra that has only a puck; they managed to get the temperature to 260°F. Mine on hwy howers around 230°F.

Good idea. The key is to space them tight to the fin stacks. Read a post years ago where two Taco’s got the same cooler - one worked - the other did not. Can of disco smoke found air going around one - gap was too big!

 

[edyvw]

Good idea. The key is to space them tight to the fin stacks. Read a post years ago where two Taco’s got the same cooler - one worked - the other did not. Can of disco smoke found air going around one - gap was too big!

It should work with this frame. No one complained so far.

 

[Faawrenchbndr]

I mentioned to you towing immediately when I was mentioning transmission in Sequoia. Now, I can’t help you with selective reading.
Also, it is not only towing. Transmission temperature in this case regularly go over 230f during normal operation, instead of 185f which was the case before they removed radiator.
Ok. I mean, I was expecting that in heat exchanger, exchange happens, but good to know. That is why I am not expert.

Different fluid, different transmissions, different internals, you can’t compare modern transmissions to transmissions 25 years ago. They’re just not the same they’re not even close.

They are designed different, most all new trucks have heat exchangers, not coolers. Manufacturers have learned to use the heat as an advantage. Engines run hotter, transmissions run hotter.

Ya really gotta take a step out of the 90s

 

[4wd]

Different fluid, different transmissions, different internals, you can’t compare modern transmissions to transmissions 25 years ago. They’re just not the same they’re not even close.

They are designed different, most all new trucks have heat exchangers, not coolers. Manufacturers have learned to use the heat as an advantage. Engines run hotter, transmissions run hotter.

Ya really gotta take a step out of the 90s

My 2022 Tahoe has by far the coolest running transmission I have owned - by allot. August, whenever …
It’s just the entry level towing package …

 

[4wd]

Potentially, but there are lots of low tension designs currently in production that don't suffer the issues that other designs where that's being blamed as the culprit are. They've become the low hanging fruit on the blame tree when the reality is that as I noted, it's the culmination of design decisions that creates this problem, not one singular aspect, like ring tension. The HEMI has low tension rings, so does the Pentastar, neither suffer this problem. The Hurricane engine will as well, I think it's a bit early to conclude it doesn't suffer the issue, but if it doesn't, like the BMW B58 doesn't, it again points to them not being this universal harbinger of consumption and other problems that many seem to believe them to be.

O/K … you would recall the catch can craze here - some felt it was getting rid of the worst of the worst effluents …
Thoughts?

 

[edyvw]

Different fluid, different transmissions, different internals, you can’t compare modern transmissions to transmissions 25 years ago. They’re just not the same they’re not even close.

They are designed different, most all new trucks have heat exchangers, not coolers. Manufacturers have learned to use the heat as an advantage. Engines run hotter, transmissions run hotter.

Ya really gotta take a step out of the 90s

Wonder why we have transmission issues galore.
Heat is good for mpg. I already mentioned that. But you have to find balance between mpg and longevity. They also mostly have “lifetime “ fluids. So you have situations where vehicle manufacturers don’t recommend change, while transmission manufacturer (ZF) does.

 

[VolvoZ]

Good discussion here. But, what if another big contributor to stuck rings, in addition to lower viscosity oils and extended oil changes, is dealerships, service centers, and quick lubes that just plain bill the customer for the oil change and don’t actually do the oil change? Similar to what happened to me for a brake fluid flush that I was billed for, but never happened, at a Honda dealership. I am pretty sure this sort of cheating happens often based on my experience with dealerships. You end up with a super-extended OCI of 16K to 22K miles, give or take. That might cause some oil to start coking on the hot spots in an engine!

 

[goblin]

... I am pretty sure this sort of cheating happens often based on my experience with dealerships. ..

While the issue is prevalent with brake fluid flush (yet the user can check if it was actually done in 20 seconds at the dealership lot), I don't think it's much of a thing for oil.

Most quick lube places have a see-trough bay for the clients to watch, if they (clients) are not kept in the car the whole time to begin with.

I can see it happen for fleet mechanics, but that's another can of worms

 

[Faawrenchbndr]

Wonder why we have transmission issues galore.
Heat is good for mpg. I already mentioned that. But you have to find balance between mpg and longevity. They also mostly have “lifetime “ fluids. So you have situations where vehicle manufacturers don’t recommend change, while transmission manufacturer (ZF) does.

Lack of service is the issue

The so-called lifetime transmission service is a bunch of BS. It’s a marketing ploy to try to get a uninformed consumer to believe cost of ownership is lower due to longer service intervals.

About 75% of consumers actually would fall into a severe service category. And from recent memory, considering Ford and Toyota, this cuts those recommended service intervals in half.

These new transmissions have solenoids, they’re extremely sensitive to contamination. A mechanic I trust suggests draining the pan in a refilling every 30k.

I’ve been doing that with a Toyota since 2008 and it’s been flawless. Did the same with a 23 Tacoma, no issues. Plan on the same service interval for my 24 F150.

People that wait until 75-80k to service a trans, those are the people that have issues

Oil is cheap, engines and transmissions aren’t.

 

[edyvw]

Lack of service is the issue

The so-called lifetime transmission service is a bunch of BS. It’s a marketing ploy to try to get a uninformed consumer to believe cost of ownership is lower due to longer service intervals.

About 75% of consumers actually would fall into a severe service category. And from recent memory, considering Ford and Toyota, this cuts those recommended service intervals in half.

These new transmissions have solenoids, they’re extremely sensitive to contamination. A mechanic I trust suggests draining the pan in a refilling every 30k.

I’ve been doing that with a Toyota since 2008 and it’s been flawless. Did the same with a 23 Tacoma, no issues. Plan on the same service interval for my 24 F150.

People that wait until 75-80k to service a trans, those are the people that have issues

Oil is cheap, engines and transmissions aren’t.

Wait, but I thought they figured out the way? These are not 90’s right?

 

[OVERKILL]

O/K … you would recall the catch can craze here - some felt it was getting rid of the worst of the worst effluents …
Thoughts?

Depends on the application. I think catch cans are a placebo for a lot of applications where the PCV system is properly designed. There are of course exceptions.

 

[Brian123]

What I found most mind-blowing of all, however, was the suggestion that the modern epidemic of sticking rings might have more to do with oil oxidation and little to nothing to do with "low tension rings

Use a better oil!

After all, here on BITOG it's mostly accepted as gospel that modern engines all have "low tension rings" and these rings all suck and that's why all new engines are junk and turn into oil burners.

Use a better oil!

But what is the *mechanism* by which being lower tension would cause the rings to develop deposits?

Fuel Dilution and extending the OCI.

It suggest to me that the modern problems with ring sticking have perhaps nothing to do with "low tension" rings. But, like low tension rings, it is in fact a product of the government mandated push for CAFE and enhanced fuel economy, but ring sticking is a phenomenon of oil oxidation in the ring pack, and low HTHS oils are much worse for ring pack oxidation. If the oils below 3.5 HTHS are 25-40% worse in ring pack deposit simulations than oils that are >4.0 HTHS, then how much worse are these oils that are 2.7-2.8 HTHS in ring pack oxidation?

Use an oil with a HTHS number of at least 3.5!

In other words, we seem to be mistaking correlation for causation-- that because "low tension rings" coexist with low viscosity oils and sticking rings, that the the ring sticking is *caused* by the lower tension.

Thicker Oil!

However, the low tension may just be coexisting with the lighter oils, which may be the real contributor to stuck rings.

Thicker Oil!

I never considered viscosity and cleanliness to be related in this way. But I'm seeing in the "Rudnick commentaries" many smaller ways in which thicker oils lead to cleaner, happier engines-

We need to be really careful with this thicker oil thing and not go to thick, normal driving 5W-30 is perfect, 5W-40 for more spirited driving.

 

[ChemLabNL]

Just use Mobil 1 ESP 0w30 and Shell gasoline.