What caused this on a 351w?

[Rutwad01]

I took a vehicle to be restored to a shop in 2018. The engine was not going to be used. It was a great running engine. Well, plans changed and we are going to use it. So it sat in a non-insulated, not climate controlled shop all this time. Did not even have oil in it as the oil pan was replaced just prior to taking it to him.

So last week the shop tried to start it for the first time after all these years sitting. Pulled valve covers. Said rockers are just flopping. So he said they were going to adjust the valves and try again. (Not sure you can adjust them??) Then he called to say a lifter is likely broken or cam lobe worn as #4 had a rocker that's barely moving. It makes no sense to me. I've been doing a lot of thinking. I'm no mechanic. But I do have what u feel happened in my mind. But to keep from influencing ya'lls opinion, I want to see what y'all think first.

Oh, he said when the engine was cleaned in a vat that whoever did that apparently did not clean the residue good. The oil ports were clogged. The lifter was dry. But that engine was rebuilt in late 1990's to early 2000's probably and 5000 miles ago. I've owned it since early 2000s. Hasn't been rebuilt since i had it. If that was the case, shouldn't that issue have arose before now?

He said they put a set of lifters in it yesterday and replaced 5 or 6 push rods that were clogged.

I'd love to hear what y'all have to say!

 

[ElectroMechanoMan]

What year was the 351W? We had a 72 LTD with a 351W back in about 1975 and the valves burned up in it. I wish I was as capable as a kid as I am now because I would have been able to fix it correctly with help from the folks I know now. What I had been told back then was the heads had the valve stems running through a parent bore in the head without guides. I’m not going to go through the whole story, but it got down to 25 below and I was out trying to get it started. I finally got it running and my uncle told me to get it to a good mechanic. The mechanic said no compression. Total head rebuild was done. Ran good for a year and then started acting up so dad got rid of it. Pull the heads and check the condition. The bottom half of those engines is good. Find a good machinist and fix it right. Check your cam lift too. Get those heads done the way they should be.

 

[PontiacHO]

Sounds like there were sludge issues happening prior to the engine removal. After sitting for so long that sludge hardened. Did they at least pull the distributor and pre-lube the engine with the high zinc oil prior to starting? It may not have mattered anyway since it sounds pretty sludged up anyway.

 

[JohnnyG]

I think that the hydraulic lifters bled down. Without oil in them they won't work properly. What should have happened, instead of trying to adjust the valves on dry lifters, oil pressure should have been built up first, allowing the lifters to fill.

Clogged pushrods would only cause the top part of the rocker not to get any lube. The engine would have had to run a good while in that condition to cause damage, but they are hollow for a reason.

Now, if these are solid lifters, forget everything I just said.

 

[Rutwad01]

Sounds like there were sludge issues happening prior to the engine removal. After sitting for so long that sludge hardened. Did they at least pull the distributor and pre-lube the engine with the high zinc oil prior to starting? It may not have mattere10/3d anyway since it sounds pretty sludged up anyway.

My guess is that he did not prelube it before trying to start. I asked him what oil he was running and he said castrol. I asked what weight and he said probably 10w40 or 5w30. He said he would find out. Doesn't sound like he used a high zinc oil.

I'm thinking lifters collapsed due to oil seeping out. That would explain the loose rockers. Gas could have gummed up the valves. Oil residue. Or other. With only 5000 miles on the rebuild, i don't think sludge would have been present.

He's using the wrong oil. Likely did not prelube it. I'm worried it may have scarred the cam. May have more issues. I'm pissed.

He's told me if problems asking the way with different things of the vehicle restoration. A lot of it isn't making sense to me. I do not think his shop/ men know much about what they are doing

 

[CleanSump]

Hydraulic lifters so they bled down. No big deal. No, they don't get adjusted, that's the point of hydraulic lifters.
Sludge in the pushrods and elsewhere is probably from sitting with conventional oil and whatever that Vat contained did leave crud that congealed. You don't tank an assembled engine. Jeesh.
He doesn't sound like he really knows what he's doing. Before starting after sitting so long he should have prelubed by spinning the oil pump with a shaft in a drill until he got oil coming out at the rockers and making sure the cylinders weren't dry.

 

[Rutwad01]

Hydraulic lifters so they bled down. No big deal. No, they don't get adjusted, that's the point of hydraulic lifters.
Sludge in the pushrods and elsewhere is probably from sitting with conventional oil and whatever that Vat contained did leave crud that congealed. You don't tank an assembled engine. Jeesh.
He doesn't sound like he really knows what he's doing. Before starting after sitting so long he should have prelubed by spinning the oil pump with a shaft in a drill until he got oil coming out at the rockers.

I'm saying if it was ever in a vat, that was over 5000 miles and over 20 years ago. It was rebuilt about 5000 miles ago

 

[bdcardinal]

A SBF is so easy to pre-lube when you have the tool from ARP and a drill. I think sitting for so long didn't help it any for sure.

 

[The_Eric]

It's not sludged up 5000 miles after a rebuild.

The lifters bled down and the shop went the wrong direction with things. They probably should have put oil in it and either cranked it with the plugs out until there was pressure or pulled the distributor and used a priming tool. There's no reason for an engine that ran good prior to sitting to need all kinds of work.

 

[supton]

Not sure the shop knows what they are doing. But "wrong oil" shouldn't kill a cam while idling an engine. I'm guessing it has sludge, rust and who knows what else going on. TBH I suspect it may just need to be run long enough to get some heat into the motor and start loosening things up. I'd tighten the rockers to whatever spec is required, then get it running again. Once it gets past idling for a bit, and maybe driving a bit, and a bit of a tuneup, see if anything needs changing. Not much to lose at this point by doing that.

Did they get it actually running and idling? Or are just finding issues? Finding plugged up pushrods before getting things going... I might revise my opinion, might not know much but are be super cautious, and that's a good thing (minus having good knowledge).

 

[Rutwad01]

He said it was popping and backfiring. So i assumed it ran.

I'm not saying the incorrect oil caused this. I'm saying the oil he is using should not be used in a 351w with a flat tappet cam. Just proof that he doesn't know what he is doing. One example.

Another- 2 hoses for power steering pump. A pressure and return. It blew their minds trying to figure it out. Days later he said they finally got them figured out but the pump is pouring oil from all seals. Wasn't when I took it to him. So 8 years of sitting may have caused that. Or with a 50% chance of hooking them up wrong and blowing the seals is a likely thing as well.

Rear brakes- he could not find what they came off of and was unable to find a part for them. So he swapped the rear drum for disc because of this. At my expense. With Google, AI, and all the information available today i don't see how he could not figure this out.

My Bronco had Holley Pro-jection throttle body. Ran great. Yet he said he did not know how to get it running properly and took it off. I'm doing this, he said the intake and carb had to be replaced. I thought the aftermarket system was a bolt- on.

He's 95% into the project, including frame modification he did. Then at the last minute he could not get the front fenders, hood, and grill to line up. Said the frame was bent. How the hell did he not catch this when the frame was sand blasted, or when they modified the frame. Careful measurements should have been done.

Just lots of things he's said, but doesn't seem capable of doing. I really think he's a part changer. Not a mechanic. Not a body/ frame man.

Oh, he claims the body looked like cottage cheese after sand blasting and an entire new body was needed. I picked the old body up about a month ago. It's been sand blasted since 2019 and sitting outside this entire time. The vast majority of the body is still solid. Could have been repaired.

 

[D60]

He said it was popping and backfiring. So i assumed it ran.

I'm not saying the incorrect oil caused this. I'm saying the oil he is using should not be used in a 351w with a flat tappet cam. Just proof that he doesn't know what he is doing. One example.

Another- 2 hoses for power steering pump. A pressure and return. It blew their minds trying to figure it out. Days later he said they finally got them figured out but the pump is pouring oil from all seals. Wasn't when I took it to him. So 8 years of sitting may have caused that. Or with a 50% chance of hooking them up wrong and blowing the seals is a likely thing as well.

Rear brakes- he could not find what they came off of and was unable to find a part for them. So he swapped the rear drum for disc because of this. At my expense. With Google, AI, and all the information available today i don't see how he could not figure this out.

My Bronco had Holley Pro-jection throttle body. Ran great. Yet he said he did not know how to get it running properly and took it off. I'm doing this, he said the intake and carb had to be replaced. I thought the aftermarket system was a bolt- on.

He's 95% into the project, including frame modification he did. Then at the last minute he could not get the front fenders, hood, and grill to line up. Said the frame was bent. How the hell did he not catch this when the frame was sand blasted, or when they modified the frame. Careful measurements should have been done.

Just lots of things he's said, but doesn't seem capable of doing. I really think he's a part changer. Not a mechanic. Not a body/ frame man.

Oh, he claims the body looked like cottage cheese after sand blasting and an entire new body was needed. I picked the old body up about a month ago. It's been sand blasted since 2019 and sitting outside this entire time. The vast majority of the body is still solid. Could have been repaired.

It seems like you need to get it out of there. FWIW it shouldn't really be possible to mix up p/s hoses. Typically they're different threads at the box/rack and the pump. Many return hoses just slip on a nipple at the pump/reservoir and use a hose clamp. Toyota can be bad about threads that are close (diameter) to the eye and you spend 30 minutes trying to make them go together -- if you ate paint chips like me

New hoses, boxes and racks often come with a tiny o-ring in a baggy that gets lost or trapped under box flap, then people put it together with no o-ring and it leaks.

The guy's doing a lot of "upgrades" without authorization and he should at least be clearing that with the guy who writes the checks.

I've chased down very obscure drum parts in GM applications -- was told a '58 Apache had an El Camino rear end but it was actually from a '70s Chevelle IIRC