hopefully soon, I don't think they "don't want to" I think they are incapable - they don't know how. Whenever an intersection's lights go down people just freeze up and don't know what to do, they don't know who should go first, how to react etc so you end up with 14 cars packed into the middle trying to go every which way, honking at eachother. People wouldn't know what to do if they were not told.
What can beat a Civic?
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hopefully soon, I don't think they "don't want to" I think they are incapable - they don't know how. Whenever an intersection's lights go down people just freeze up and don't know what to do, they don't know who should go first, how to react etc so you end up with 14 cars packed into the middle trying to go every which way, honking at eachother. People wouldn't know what to do if they were not told.
Oh for heaven's sake, I'm not talking about who gets a pink slip and who doesn't. I'm talking about general classes of performance. According to Car and Driver, 0.3 seconds of difference in acceleration is about the minimum that most normal people can perceive. So, yes, to be perfectly precise, that Accord is just a little quicker than the Prius, and if you were comparing the cars back-to-back, you might even feel a little difference. My point, however, is that these are cars that are similar members of a class. Both would be easily spanked by a V-6 Accord, V-6 Camry, or a Maxima, or a G35; as these are all cars of different classes, with notably superior performance.
Your comments also overlook the variable slope of the acceleration curve. Although the Accord which you mention will beat the Prius to 60 mph, because of the Prius' overwhelming advantage in low-end torque, in a flat out drag race, the Prius would be in the lead until at least 30 mph. In short, it really all depends upon how you define “fast”, and what kind of “fast” is important to you.
"Don't even mention the current accord has gained 10 HP since that edmunds article was written." Yeah, and what sort of torque is that Accord (or more to the point, Civic) generating at, say, 1200 rpm??? Don't even mention it. . .
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Right about the same time that people stop confusing the person in the driver's seat with the car that he's operating. I got cut off by a jerk in a Camaro today. A couple weeks ago, I watched a fool trying to drive a Suburban like a Camaro, on a wet highway, and he ended up bouncing off a guardrail (great for the paint, I'm sure). I guess I should blame the Camaro and the Suburban. . . Newsflash -- morons are found behind many, diverse steering wheels! Civics, Prii, and many more.
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Oh for heaven's sake, I'm not talking about who gets a pink slip and who doesn't. I'm talking about general classes of performance. According to Car and Driver, 0.3 seconds of difference in acceleration is about the minimum that most normal people can perceive. So, yes, to be perfectly precise, that Accord is just a little quicker than the Prius, and if you were comparing the cars back-to-back, you might even feel a little difference. My point, however, is that these are cars that are similar members of a class. Both would be easily spanked by a V-6 Accord, V-6 Camry, or a Maxima, or a G35; as these are all cars of different classes, with notably superior performance.
Your comments also overlook the variable slope of the acceleration curve. Although the Accord which you mention will beat the Prius to 60 mph, because of the Prius' overwhelming advantage in low-end torque, in a flat out drag race, the Prius would be in the lead until at least 30 mph. In short, it really all depends upon how you define “fast”, and what kind of “fast” is important to you.
"Don't even mention the current accord has gained 10 HP since that edmunds article was written." Yeah, and what sort of torque is that Accord (or more to the point, Civic) generating at, say, 1200 rpm??? Don't even mention it. . .
A stock 03 manual I4 accord actually makes max torque of 150 ft-lbs, at 2500 RPMs, at the wheels. 15% drivetrain loss means 175 ft-lbs at the crank. At 2500 rpms mind you. As you can see, honda actually conservatively rates the 2.4L motor.
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=80004&page_number=3
Quite frankly, edmunds accord times are high, other publications get less, but edmunds numbers were readily available. MT notes 8.5 sec 0-60 for the 03 auto i4 accord but the numbers are not online.
You can spout off about the prius 300 ft-lb electric motor, but I doubt all of that makes it to the wheels. The electric motor's operating rpm range is tiny and as such the torque must be reduced through gearing by the time it reaches the wheels. Of course you are perfectly welcome to prove me wrong with a prius dyno sheet.
As for 0-30;
auto accord V6: 2.5 sec
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0512_family_sedan_comparison/specs_price.html
prius: 3.4 sec
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/7701/toyota-prius-page4.html
Before you cry about V6 being unfair, the V6 accord only makes marginally more torque than the i4, (212 vs 161) and it's also 200 lbs heavier than i4 so it's basically moot. Apparently that 300 ft-lbs doesn't translate to real performance.
Like you say, "Let's not get confused with facts." But then again, we've already established you don't know what you're talking about.
Thanks for the many replies.
To answer each of the questions raised, individually:
I think I’ve pretty much narrowed it down to either a Jetta Value Edition Auto, Scion tC Automatic, Civic EX Auto, or possibly a Mazda 3.
My biggest gripe about the Mazda 3 is fuel efficiency…the ratings are 26/31 (I might be 1-2 mpg off from memory) for the 2.3L Auto. Otherwise, my parents have had a tainted image of Mazdas, as my father used to own a 323 that had some weird problems, but granted, that was an ’83 model. Still, I don’t have much love for the 3’s styling but I’ll look into it.
The Civic’s oil filter has been changed for 06. It is now upright mounted and is right next to the oil pan, very easy to reach.
I’d very much like a used TL-S or CL-S, but I’m a bit hesitant of getting a car with near 100k on the clock given the questionable transmission and the $1200 timing belt job approaching. My parents want a new car, not a used car, so it’s pretty much out of the question. In addition, these luxury cars can become rather unreliable after 100k miles so that makes me worrisome as well. My Saturn has already had a lot of problems well before 100k, but luckily they’ve been small mechanical issues that are easily and inexpensively resolved.
I’m not really interested in an Accord. It’s too big.
The Corolla is on its last year of the current generation. Once dressed with ABS, it can easily head into territory within $500 of the Civic LX, which I’d much rather have.
Also, automatic only. No stick. Parents won’t drive stick.
So lets shift this thread a bit. How does the Jetta, tC, and Civic compare. I sat in a Civic today and I think the dash will take some getting used to.
To answer each of the questions raised, individually:
I think I’ve pretty much narrowed it down to either a Jetta Value Edition Auto, Scion tC Automatic, Civic EX Auto, or possibly a Mazda 3.
My biggest gripe about the Mazda 3 is fuel efficiency…the ratings are 26/31 (I might be 1-2 mpg off from memory) for the 2.3L Auto. Otherwise, my parents have had a tainted image of Mazdas, as my father used to own a 323 that had some weird problems, but granted, that was an ’83 model. Still, I don’t have much love for the 3’s styling but I’ll look into it.
The Civic’s oil filter has been changed for 06. It is now upright mounted and is right next to the oil pan, very easy to reach.
I’d very much like a used TL-S or CL-S, but I’m a bit hesitant of getting a car with near 100k on the clock given the questionable transmission and the $1200 timing belt job approaching. My parents want a new car, not a used car, so it’s pretty much out of the question. In addition, these luxury cars can become rather unreliable after 100k miles so that makes me worrisome as well. My Saturn has already had a lot of problems well before 100k, but luckily they’ve been small mechanical issues that are easily and inexpensively resolved.
I’m not really interested in an Accord. It’s too big.
The Corolla is on its last year of the current generation. Once dressed with ABS, it can easily head into territory within $500 of the Civic LX, which I’d much rather have.
Also, automatic only. No stick. Parents won’t drive stick.
So lets shift this thread a bit. How does the Jetta, tC, and Civic compare. I sat in a Civic today and I think the dash will take some getting used to.
Your parents' tainted image of Mazdas from 1983 is going to be nothing compared to the image they're going to get from a 2007 VW. It is your duty to prevent anybody inflicting this kind of misery upon themselves. VW is easily the worst brand still peddling their wares is this country, now that Yugo, Renault, and Peugeot are gone.
When the 'rents realize what a hot little racer the tC is, you can forget them letting you near it. Plus, when you take them to the dealer to see it, you risk them falling in love with the xB. But the hatch would be useful. Which brings us to the car you really should have: The Vibe. You liked the Matrix, right? Take them to see a Vibe before you decide.
When the 'rents realize what a hot little racer the tC is, you can forget them letting you near it. Plus, when you take them to the dealer to see it, you risk them falling in love with the xB. But the hatch would be useful. Which brings us to the car you really should have: The Vibe. You liked the Matrix, right? Take them to see a Vibe before you decide.
Nice attitude.
The V-6 Accord “only makes marginally more torque than the I4"??? Ummmmm, the V-6 makes 51 ft-lb more torque than the I-4. That’s over 30% more. It’s why Honda bothers to make, and customers shell out a couple grand extra for, the V-6 car. To borrow your own kind words, looks like we’ve established that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
You also stated, “You can spout off about the prius 300 ft-lb electric motor, but I doubt all of that makes it to the wheels. The electric motor's operating rpm range is tiny and as such the torque must be reduced through gearing by the time it reaches the wheels.” Obviously, you don’t know what you’re talking about with respect to Toyota’s HSD design. The torque “curve” of the motor-generators is totally flat. You have 100% torque available from 0-1200 engine rpm. Please do show us an Accord that’s generating 100% torque right off the line. And the PSD (power split device, which actually combines power) allows the motor-gens to continue contributing over a wider rpm band than the spec suggests. And we haven’t even mentioned the additional torque contributed by the HSD’s gas engine, which is over and above the MGs.
Let’s set the magazines aside for a moment – I’ve driven both of these cars, and own an example of one of them. I can tell from your comments that you cannot say the same.
Look, as I stated previously, I didn’t come into this thread to talk about drag racing family sedans. I’m talking about general classes of vehicles. Mike asked a perfectly valid question about the Civic. I responded. I stand by my original statement, that a basic Prius is a valid alternative for a high-end gas Civic, and especially an HCH. Do you have something to say about that?
There is a whole lot of good information here. But some posts are comparing apples to oranges. Hondas shouldn't be compared to BMW & Benz. The Sonata for example in not in the same EPA class as the Civic even if you can get a Sonata for a similar price as a Civic, the Elantra is in the same EPA class and is a very comparable car for a lot less money. And only a Civic Hybrid can be compared to the Prius. Otherwise it is compared to the Corolla. A 6 cylinder can not be compared to a 4 cylinder although some MFG's compare their V6 to some 4 bangers for highway MPG. If we are talking about "How much car can we get for the money", then there are quite a few V6 midsize sedans that can be had for a decent price with discounts/rebates. What is being asked here is: "What can beat a Civic"? I don't thing Critic is talking about 0-60 or 1/4 mile times. Honda covers alot of ground with the Civic offering a coupe, sedan and hybrid. If a shopper is looking for the most car for the money then the Civic in not the choice. In hybrid form the Civic my not be the top choice, but a good choice still and a bit better looking thay the Prius. In coupe form the Civic is a very good choice but, one needs to compare the competition and choose the right one for comfort, style, ingress/egress, and view out of the windows etc. The Civic sedan is one of the best sedans(maybe the best overall) in the ECONOMY CAR CLASS WITH A 4 CYLINDER ENGINE,(apples to apples), although expensive when really loaded up with options. These are always tough conversations when comparing vehicles. What do you want to compare to a Civic?.....Best compact car with a 4 cyl?...Fastest car in class?.....Biggest/Most car, most engine for the same money as a Civic?.....Best MPG?.....What?????
I will one last thing on Civic/Accord. I bought a nice 95 Civic EX coupe for slightly less than price of then 95 Accord LX Coupe. A friend bought the Accord. My Civic just like salespeople and service people told me then (I asked but thought Accord was too big) that Civic's don't last as long as Accords. I drove my Civic till 225k/9years(in 2004) and just got sick of the rattles and creaky body but no major mechanical issues. I still get rides in my friends Accord's have both still are solid car/comfortable nearing 240k & 280k miles without all the rattles/body shake and noise issues. My wife's 96 Civic was another rattle trap at 180k miles.
Just something to think of longterm if you plan on that route. Midsize cars hold together betterm, possibly the body does not transmit as many bumps throug it to you and rest of car shaking it apart.
I am so done with smaller cars as I like to go the long haul with them.
Just something to think of longterm if you plan on that route. Midsize cars hold together betterm, possibly the body does not transmit as many bumps throug it to you and rest of car shaking it apart.
I am so done with smaller cars as I like to go the long haul with them.
Char Baby:
Outersquare:
Let's both of us cool it with the ugly, disrespectful stuff. No need of it here, and it's precisely the way Tony does NOT want members to behave. So it's perfectly clear what I was trying to say (and what I didn’t mean to say), the cars I was comparing are not precisely the same in their performance, rather they are close. Sufficiently close, in my opinion, that an average Joe who just wants to get to work safely and comfortably, doesn’t even know what a pink slip is, and rarely causes pedal to meet metal; really won’t see a performance difference between a Prius, a Civic, an I-4 Camry, or I-4 Accord. If you disagree, that's fine, and I do respect that. I, of course, persist in my belief that a low-end Prius remains a viable alternative to a high-end gas Civic, and a prime alternative to the HCH.
I don't believe any VW can compare to the Civic as far as reliability. I do think a Corolla is a fair comparison other than the awkward driving position and seat that offers little thigh support. I bought a new '03 Corolla and had to get rid of it within the first year because the above mentioned items prevented me from driving it more than 90 minutes or so....sent my back into spasms. My point is to have your parents take a long test drive before purchasing anything....the few miles I drove for the demo gave no indication of how painful things would be later.
If the seats and driving position are comfortable I would go with the Civic of the cars you have mentioned.
If the seats and driving position are comfortable I would go with the Civic of the cars you have mentioned.
An excellent point w/r/t testing. I'd go so far as to say you should shell out a few bucks and rent a same-year, same-variant example of a car you're considering for as much as a week, give or take as necessary, to make really, really sure the "apple of your eye" doesn't turn out to be a "knife in your back".
Why? Insurance companes do it ALL THE TIME--and they charge more money based on the car they're driving, too!
I'm not asking anyone to pay me more money based on the car they're driving.
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Umm, 'cause two wrongs don't make a right? Your track record of posting has established that you're a rational and sensible person (I'm not wrong about that, am I?
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I don't get involved in this type of topic/conversation simply because my taste in cars is different from nearly all others that I chat with.
However, I am going to speak up on one topic that has surfaced in this thread:
DISCOURAGE YOUR PARENTS FROM PURCHASING THE VOLKSWAGEN!! I love VW and German cars in general,, but I know that they are not for the faint of heart.. or the non-mechanical folks that rely upon others to perform their service.
However, I am going to speak up on one topic that has surfaced in this thread:
DISCOURAGE YOUR PARENTS FROM PURCHASING THE VOLKSWAGEN!! I love VW and German cars in general,, but I know that they are not for the faint of heart.. or the non-mechanical folks that rely upon others to perform their service.
I don't think it'll be long before someone causes an accident and blames it on what their navigation system told them to do (if it hasn't already happened).
For example, if it tells them to "merge left" and they do so without looking and cause an accident.
I'm going to go with FowVay on that!
One of my mechanical engineer buddies had a VW with the TDI engine. Good ride, neat little diesel engine, handled nicely, but... little stupid things kept breaking. Little plastic bits would fall off. The plastic holding the window motor on the driver's side failed. It had multiple electrical problems while still under warranty.
Which is a shame, because I *really* wanted to get one myself for the diesel. I love German cars, but unless your parents are true Volkswagen addicts that know the quality control has dropped through the floor at VW but wish to continue the affair anyway... don't help sell that car.
One of my mechanical engineer buddies had a VW with the TDI engine. Good ride, neat little diesel engine, handled nicely, but... little stupid things kept breaking. Little plastic bits would fall off. The plastic holding the window motor on the driver's side failed. It had multiple electrical problems while still under warranty.
Which is a shame, because I *really* wanted to get one myself for the diesel. I love German cars, but unless your parents are true Volkswagen addicts that know the quality control has dropped through the floor at VW but wish to continue the affair anyway... don't help sell that car.
To the OP:
I'd echo the comments on the VW. Both Tc and Civic are excellent cars. Scion is more sporty, lower seating position, better handling but less fuel economy. Definitely slanted towards the young or young at heart. Should be a friendlier buying process too.
Civic is the opposite, unless we're talking Si, which I don't think we are. You can't really go wrong with either one, it just depends on which side of the performance spectrum you want to be on.
I'd echo the comments on the VW. Both Tc and Civic are excellent cars. Scion is more sporty, lower seating position, better handling but less fuel economy. Definitely slanted towards the young or young at heart. Should be a friendlier buying process too.
Civic is the opposite, unless we're talking Si, which I don't think we are. You can't really go wrong with either one, it just depends on which side of the performance spectrum you want to be on.
I seem to have owned most of the cars Mr. Critic is referring to. (though not all in their current iterations) I know I'll probably get spanked for my opinions, but I'm all grown up and can handle it. First I'll take on Toyota, reliable, safe, good resale, BORING. Toyota builds car that try not to offend anyone. But, in my opinion, they don't build cars that are any fun to drive-their suspensions are way too soft in the Camry, Corolla, and yes even the Prius which has been very well defended in this thread. The fleet of cars we have at my job includes Prius, Civic hybrids, an Insight, a couple of Civic LX sedans, Tauruses, ect. The hybrids lack much driving excitement because of their priorities, namely economical operation. They do not handle with any agility, and the power is low. The electric engines do produce low end torque, but not for very long. It is noticable off the line but fades quickly. The gas Civic has a fairly low first gear ratio which makes it feel quick off the line and by the time it upshifts, it is well into its powerband. It is true the hybrids are more economical, but you pay the price, it depends on what you look for in a car. After driving the hybrids at work, I'm quite happy with my Civic for the commute home. I previously have owned two Jetta TDI's, most recently a 2002 model. I thoroughly enjoyed these cars and the economy they provided. My 2002 was "chipped" and had Bilstein heavy duty struts and shocks installed. This made for a very economical and rewarding car to drive. It wasn't blindingly fast by any means, but quite responsive down low, a capable handler once the suspension was changed and I averaged around 48-49mpg on my commute. It is true you must be a "car person" to own a VW however. They do have more "niggling" problems than most others and the dealers are exceptionally poor with respect to customer service. My Jetta had the window regulator problem (covered by recall) and a propensity to eat MAF's. (2 of them in 100,000 miles) I would and probably will buy another in the future. I traded that Jetta in on a 2005 Acura TL 6-speed. I have never owned a car which I hated more. The car had frequent electrical gremelins within the nav/audio/outside temp monitoring system which would result is a open circuit which would drain the battery overnight when the car was shut off and the outside temp indicator would read "---". I had three batteries replaced in the 6 months I had that car. The car also suffered from numerous squeaks and rattles, had a turning circle as big as Texas, a powerband located too far up in the rev range and lousy mileage if you drove the car in that rev range. Additionally, I could never get used to the clutch take-up which was quite high in the clutch pedal movement. Take-offs from stoplights was always either alot of slipping, or a bog and possible stall if the revs were not high enough-and I have been driving standard transmissions for better than 20+ years. Mr. Critic, take my advice and stay away from that car. I got rid of that quickly and bought a Mercedes E320 CDI which was a fantastic car. Fast, good handling, with mileage in the upper 30's. I bought the Civic in January 2006 because I got sick of hearing all the rocks and gravel bouncing off the Mercedes bodywork during our Connecticut winters. Sadly I ended up selling that car in June to finance another car I had always dreamed of owning. I hope this rant helps out Mr. Critic. I am quite happy with the Civic (and very much surprized with how pleased I am with it)but I wouldn't rule out the VW, although you will have more minor problems with it than the Honda, would stay away from the Toyotas if driving pleasure or excitement is an attribute you value, and warn you to stay far, far away from Acura. ( I know it seems odd that I bought a Honda after such a miserable experience with Acura, but the test drive of the Civic and the way it handled really sold me) Good luck with whatever you buy!
Let the flames begin!!!!
Let the flames begin!!!!
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