What can beat a Civic?

[The Critic]

Quote:

---

'Ancient' is relative. Given Honda's inability to make a proper auto trans, Im not sure Id be scolding toyota in that department...

---

It was a poor word choice on my part. Dated, or last-generation would be a better description of a Matrix.

Honda is unable to make an automatic transmission that lasts 150k miles. The 5-speed Automatics introduced since 2003, in the 4-cyl engines, have been reliable. Most of Honda’s transmission problems have been exclusive to the 6-cyl engines only.

Quote:

---

Engine-wise, is the toyota engine proven? Is it long lasting? DOes it show reasonable efficiency and power output? If so, what is the issue? Yes, certainly new technology and powerplant design is of the utmost importance, but noting that the civic offers is earth shattering, IMO.

---

With such mentality, why aren’t we continuing to use 3-speed Automatics? I’m sure 3-speed Automatics showed reasonable efficiency back in the day as well, but technology moves on.

Also, the ability to produce 140HP and still churn 40-43MPG on the highway is quite earth shattering.

Quote:

---

And, isnt the civic supposed to be an 'economy car'? Heck, $16k for a lower level, and $18k for a 'top of the line' isnt particulalrly economical to me. Especially when one can buy an accord, which is the better built, better lasting car for almost the same money.

---

It isn’t economical to me either. But that’s the price one is expected to pay for a “premium” compact car, in 2006. Do I think it’s overpriced? Certainly. But that’s the fair market value for such a vehicle in today’s society.

Besides, what evidence do you have that suggests the Accord is better built?

Quote:

---

It the driving feel of the new civic is anything like the last gen, good luck getting the advertised MPG in anything less than the optimal conditions, and the rest of the time, good luck having a fun drive, as it is grossly underrpowered, especally with those poorly shifting auto transmissions... You might say that the engine now puts out more power now - but lets not forget that this car is also the size of previous generation accords at this point, and so surely has gained a number of pounds to go along with its power bump... net effect????

---

Why don’t you go out and test drive one, and report back to me?

I’d love to hear what you think.

Quote:

---

At the end of the day, if youve convinced yourself that nothing can beat a civic, then so be it. Everyone has their vehicle that nothing can beat, and it is a personal choice more than anything. Its like what was cited before... most stats and most criteria are near useless. There is a lot of spin, and people can convince themselves to liking one thing and then that is that - its easy at that point to shoot holes in any other option. Youre spending a lot of money to buy a car, whether a lot is $13k or $18k or $25k. You need to be sure that you like the feel, operation, dynamics, etc. of the vehicle - that is the end all. Stats are extremely useless a lot of the time, and unless youve experienced all the players yourself, you cant make an informed decision - youre just comparing numbers or facts on a screen without the personal element that makes them matter in the final analysis. Why do you think people label toyotas and hondas as appliances? Because their typical buyer geves even lipservice to the other options before theyre sold that Japanese is better, and don't even care to reasonably and rationally compare on a fair basis , the other vehicles, for real?

JMH

---

Of course, I’m eventually going to go out and look at these cars in person. I’m certainly not decided upon the Civic, but on paper it certainly appears to be a winner.

In the end, I bet I’ll probably give up something or another for a preference. For instance, reliability was given up for more power, better handling, and styling when our Saturn was bought. Some fuel economy as well. And heck, I’ll still take the Saturn any day over a Corolla or Civic of the same year. And I have a feeling that it’ll become a similar situation this time around…

 

[Tosh]

Quote:

---

For instance, reliability was given up for more power, better handling, and styling when our Saturn was bought.

---

So back then it was either a Hyundai Excel, a Geo Metro, or the Saturn?

 

[The Critic]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

For instance, reliability was given up for more power, better handling, and styling when our Saturn was bought.

---

So back then it was either a Hyundai Excel, a Geo Metro, or the Saturn?

---

Geo Prizm, Civic, and Saturn.

Civic turned out to be too expensive. Prizm was looking good, but my mom did not care for its lawnmower engine and mediocre interior.

Dad and I saw an early build '96 model Saturn at an Oakland street fair. It was a fresh redesign and the styling, power, and handling were ahead of the competition. And that was it.

 

[bob_ninja]

Well I couldn't resist adding my $.02

I have a 10 year old Civic CX, 1.5L engine, less than 100K.
I just got to work, 50km - 35 miles, in about 40 min.
That included a pass of a Matrix which seemed to be in no hurry. According to most of you this 1.5L engine is a joke. Still, it got me to work in a decent time. The fact is that during rush hour (commute to work) you rarely get a chance to drive much over 60mph on average. There are exceptions of course; I am talking about the majority of us.

On my commute I go through 10ish lights, couple of stop signs and half of the distance is a 70mph cruise on highway. Well below 60mph even this "toy" engine can rev up enough to pass and accelerate just fine. It still has enough power to cruise at 70mph (although I may not want to do that for several hours straight).

All this is to say that a 1.8L engine (such as in Corolla) is just fine for commutes, while a more common 2L engine is plenty. Sure you can have bigger engines. Sure your Subary turbos are a lot of fun. But for an average commute vehicle all that stuff is just overkill, unless you drive a lot every day, such as over 50miles one way.

Back on topic, I have 2 Hondas, older CX and 2001 CRV. Both machines work withouth any problems whatsoever. I have had no major problems/repairs besides the usual maintenance. They never died on me. So the quality is superb. That being said, they are becoming more expensive. Civic brand has certainly increased in size and weight, so ...
I would say that you cannot screw up going with a Civic. They just don't have much choice. Hatchback is gone. There is no Civic Wagon. etc.

 

[brianl703]

Just plan ahead while merging...

 

[JHZR2]

Bob,

I spent many-a-mile in a 3000#+, diesel sedan that makes 120hp on a good day, at full turbo boost. I know about slow and the supoposed need for excess power, versus what modest engines can actually do.

That said, Id take my diesel vs the civic for a cross-PA drive, and have many times. Its nearly as economical, a lot more spacious, and is less raucous, even when it must downshift, which is not as often.

I see your point, but it begins to be 'pointless'... Heck, on my 35 mile each way commute that I had been doing until this past may, I was averaging >36 MPG on my 04 saab that makes 175 hp, and 195 lb-ft from fast idle.

slow, underpowered, modest are somewhat relative. Some cars are better suited, others worse. The new civic can supposedly put out a lot more usable power and still pull the MPGs...

If I was looking for a real economy car, Id likely want something more along the lines of what you've got... But at the same time, I know there are a lot better iterations of 1.7/1.8L engines that get very close fuel economy (nissan sentra 1.8 AT, for example, which I can get 36 MPG in), which are a lot better drives, to me, _personally_ and _IMHO_ than a late model last gen civic.

The devil is in the details of how much better this new one is, especially given the price...

JMH

 

[Gurkha]

There may be other more economical sedans than the Civic, none though have fun factor engine like the Honda, its among the few engine that enjoys high rpm stress free runs and takes it in stride day in day out. To compare a W123 Panzerwagen with a subcompact is totally unfair and illogical, in that case, I would directly compare it to a drive in a Chevy Caprice or Lincoln Town Car.

 

[brianl703]

I'm not sure what's fun about revving an engine to redline all the time, particularly if it's a requirement to get any power out of it.

 

[JHZR2]

Im not comparing a w123 to a civic, other than the fact that per my experiences in drivin g both, both are underpowered, and there is nothing wrong with that per se.

That said, give me an underpowered w123 vs. an underpowered, raucous and not-so-great-economy civic anyday. Now that is based upon my experiences driving a new last gen civic and my own MB diesel, and are my own opinions. The civic wasnt a great highway car at all - and my fiancee's more performance oriented, but not high performance whatsoever 94 integra with 176k miles on it is a million times the highway car that the new civic we drive across the state in a few times ever could hope to be.

If the new one is much changed, good for it. I wont be able to get over its ducklike resemblance for long enough to call it a goodlooking car. Sorry, my personal opinion again.

I concur with Brian. And, that said, Ive never had to redline even the most underpowered of vehicles Ive driven to get by safely and considerately in my day to day driving.

JMH

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Quote:

---

I'm not sure what's fun about revving an engine to redline all the time, particularly if it's a requirement to get any power out of it.

---

Good point..

Hey Gurkha?

Quote:

---

There may be other more economical sedans than the Civic, none though have fun factor engine like the Honda, its among the few engine that enjoys high rpm stress free runs and takes it in stride day in day out.

---

I don't know the environment over in India, but allow me to propose an idea lots of us that use the public roads embrace. That of responsibility. The public highways and roads aren't for YOU to go have fun redlining your Civic upon, creating a nuisance on the one hand, and outright risk to the life, limb and property of others. For "fun", as you put it.

And it's not just you and your bretheren. It's Lexas, who shows pairs of the latest performance sedans rat-racing through the streets of Manhatten through traffic, down alleys and past sidewalks carrying pedestrians. It's Sub-boob-aroo showing WRXs racing down the road. And mopes, mostly young men, full of themselves, pizz and vinegar, USING that HP on my roads that MY kid travels on. The roads aren't for YOUR fun, to stretch the boundaries of your rice-ratter, they're for kids to travel on to get to and from school. For people to get to the grocery store, to work, and back home in one piece on. THAT'S what the public highways are for, not for the "fun" of sociopathic miscreants who, in addition to their outright stupidity, are frequently the WORST drivers on the road in addition to the most psycho. And these doods DO kill people.

I'm pretty conservative politically, I HATE regulation, but everytime some knucklehead plows a family to an early grave around here because he couldn't stop for a red light due to a rat-race, I start to wonder, what IS the purpose of a 265 HP 2000lb car that'll do 0-100 in about 15 seconds? Or a 500HP ShelbyGT? On a public highway, driven by considerably less than expert drivers? For fun? You kidding me? Buy a race car or a bike and head for the track. And the only thing, to my mind, that matches the stupidity of the folks that drive them on the road as depicted in the commercials is the irresponsibility of the companies that build these things and place them in the hands of sociopaths. Ok, so keep the government out of it. But trust me, when a lawsuit against the quite culpable manufacturers that have created all this vs. a family that was wiped out by some knucklehead playing Davy Allison on the highway comes along, guess who *I* will be rooting for?

MHO, as always. YOUR mileage will surely vary..

 

[Gurkha]

toocrazy2yoo,

Stop preaching, and don't assume I drive in India exclusively, I live both in India and in NYC, my 22 years in US, I have no accidents or have caused no death to others, I do have some speeding tickets in my early years, I did my racing in WERA and SCCA circuits, not on street, learnt that long time back while driving in India that street racing doesn't pay. All I did was make a point about the superb balance and reliability of the Honda engine, if you are against high performance engine, the Honda is way low on the ladder, start with pompous Euro 12 cylinders and US 8L 10 cylinders developing over 400+bhp. As a matter of fact, ban all internal combustion engine cars, force everyone to drive electric cars. Don't know why you are at BITOG if thats your mindset. Most of my friends who have high performance cars are among the most responsible drivers in US, I see the rashest drivers on NY roads were the ones with beaten old Chevys and Fords.

JHZR2,

I drive few Benz diesels and no way can you compare the highway manner of a sub compact with a full size sedan, that way my G Wagen glides like a dream over the highway as compared to my W123 300TD. However, the 300TD has less power to weight ratio than a Civic, by the time its at cruising speed of say 80mph, compared to the Civic, the coffee mill clatter gets truly annoying in a long drive. As I said, would take a Chevy Caprice for a long drive over the W123 any day.

 

[JHZR2]

Gurkha,

fine, agree to disagee... I have my MPG logs, and I have my time spent long-distance in a civic, and I have my time long-distance in my MB, and my saab, and my BMW, and my integra, and my pickup truck..

I can tell you that in my opinion, the civic was the poorest. And it is not purely an issue of vehicle size or weight... its an issue of design, gearing, power, economy, etc. The civic is a fine around town car, but it is downright poor on the highway. And, short of my new saab, my w123 is about as good a highway cruiser as it gets. Maybe yours didnt have sound insulation, or you had a hole in the mufler or something... I know that my engine gets smoother with revs, and at 3100 RPM and 71 MPH, its definitely quieter and smoother than any civic Ive been in (hopefully the new one is better), and same for our integra. Clatter subsides in a diesel with RPM, unless it is broken somehow.

But lets agree to diasagree. You really dont need to waste the bandwidth putting down my choice in a w123 vehicle as a top-notch all around car. I might not agree with all your statements about your 500k accord or whatnot, and I might believe that it is nothing more than an anomaly for a honda to get that many miles, but I say it once and leave it at that. Petty arguing and trying to get everyone to see your point just wastes bandwidth and time, and is generally fruitless.

JMH

 

[brianl703]

You know, the one accepted, and even expected, place to rev up your car's engine is in an acceleration lane.

Yet I RARELY see anyone do that. I guess it's more fun to weave in and out of heavy traffic...

 

[Gurkha]

JHZR2,

I just make counterpoint, and if thats wasting bandwidth, let the mods at BITOG decide on that. Now you attack my 500K Accord, I suggest you come down to NYC when I am here in Jan and have a look, I can show you the dealership records as well, I stopped going to the dealer after the free service and it has been DIY ever since. As for Civic being louder than your W123, thats a hoot, my W123 was brand new, so no muffler holes or insulation problem unless folks at MB slipped up, wouldn't surprise me a bit if they did.

 

[Gurkha]

Just wanted to add that everytime there is mention of a Japanese car, you bring up comparison between your W123, just do a introspect of your posts here and you will see that, its just pointless and futile to compare a diesel relic of the past to present cars, however good the diesel relic maybe so now who is taking up the bandwidth?

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Quote:

---

As a matter of fact, ban all internal combustion engine cars, force everyone to drive electric cars. Don't know why you are at BITOG if thats your mindset. Most of my friends who have high performance cars are among the most responsible drivers in US

---

Me thinks doth protest too much, Gurkah. I always know I got someone when they go over the top. I never advocated the banning of anything. And I'm not preaching, I'm protesting. It's an opinion. And, all ricer-rat racers think THEY are the best drivers.. Right up till they hit the wall. Or a tree. Or someone on their way home at night. The modding industry of today is far bigger than back in the muscle-car days. And at the end of every project is the street. The performance sedans and their ads lead to the same thing. It's there to see in the papers every morning.

Too bad the skill and smarts to drive these things doesn't come with the money to buy them. I don't say EVERYONE does it, but lots do. No denying. Your opinion on the subject would change were, Gawd forbid, someone close got tagged by one of these knuckleheads.. It's a public highway, not a track, and the advocacy of all this in ads and deed is nuts..

Nuff said by me..

Sorry

 

[Gurkha]

Why just ricer racers? I have seen plenty of Corvettes, T/A and other non ricer big engines wrapped around the tree as well, and we all take a risk when we enter the public highway, be it inclement weather, drunks ( who incidentally are the largest killers ), etc. Singling out small high performance Japanese engines truly shows your bias.

 

[mdv]

Quote:

---

Why just ricer racers? I have seen plenty of Corvettes, T/A and other non ricer big engines wrapped around the tree as well, and we all take a risk when we enter the public highway, be it inclement weather, drunks ( who incidentally are the largest killers ), etc. Singling out small high performance Japanese engines truly shows your bias.

---

Let's not forget the countless SUV's that crash/roll due to the sheer incompetence of the drivers. A cell phone yielding soccer mom in a Surburban is far more scary to me than your average rice rocket driver around here. ________, most of slam the cars so far down their incapable of any speed on the rough roads around here because they skip like a stone.

 

[06RANGER]

lol! @ every response that included the Mexican built Sentra in the same sentence in terms of reliability as the Civic or Corolla.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Quote:

---

Why just ricer racers? I have seen plenty of Corvettes, T/A and other non ricer big engines wrapped around the tree as well, and we all take a risk when we enter the public highway, be it inclement weather, drunks ( who incidentally are the largest killers ), etc.

---

I don't care for those either, Ghurk.. Check out headlight section. The sport Utes are fine, but around here, they're occupied by the go-go set that think nothing of riding bumpers with the brights on. You know the type. Typical Ugly-American type, cell phone surgically attached to the side of the head. I especially like the mutts that wear the blue tooth earbuds.. Very hip. Latest status symbol of the Beltway Lobbyist-vermin on his way to pick our pockets down on K Street.

Plus (not preaching, just a IMHO kinda thing) with our guys over there getting killed watching over the oil, what the heck, why not think about, you know, using a little LESS? Folks are free to drive one to a Sport Ute, WE are all free to show disdain for the "Look at me and my power" piggies that just HAVE to have a behometh on the road. And true enough, they kill lots of peeps too. Drunks I won't even go into. They don't warrant mention, but they do warrant jail.